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Engineers use MacBook pros because it’s the best built laptop, the best screen, arguably the best OS and most importantly - they’re not the ones paying for them
by coffeebeqn 2y ago
Engineers use MacBook pros because it’s the best built laptop, the best screen, arguably the best OS and most importantly - they’re not the ones paying for them.
- BobbyTables2 2y agoI have one and hate it with a passion. A MacBook Air bought new in the past 3 years should be able to use Teams (alone) without keeling over. Takes over a minute to launch Outlook. My 15 year old Sony laptop can do better. Even if Microsoft on Mac is an unmitigated dumpster fire, this is ridiculous. I avoid using it whenever possible. If people email me, it’d better not be urgent.
- riddlemethat 2y agoI avoid using Outlook on any device, but I wouldn't complain about my Surface tablet's performance based on how poorly iTunes performs...
- josephg 2y agoIs it an Apple silicon or Intel machine? Intel macs are crazy slow - especially since the most recent few versions of macOS. And especially since developers everywhere have upgraded to an M1 or better.
- saagarjha 2y agoNo MacBook Air from the last 3 years is Intel-based
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- josephg 2y agoYou could certainly still buy new intel macbooks 3 years ago from Apple. Plenty of people did - particularly given a lot of software was still running through rosetta at the time. The M1 air was only released in November 2020. With a bit of slop in the numbers, its very possible the parent poster bought an intel mac just before the M1 launched.
- jlarcombe 2y agoYeah it's such a shame how much the performance has been affected by recent macOS. I kept my 2019 Mac Book Pro on Catalina for years because everyone else was complaining... finally upgraded directly to Sonoma and the difference in speed was night and day!
- rootusrootus 2y agoSounds a bit like my Intel MBP, in particular after they (the company I work for) installed all the lovely bloatware/tracking crap IT thinks we need to be subjected to. Most of the day the machine runs with the fans blasting away. Still doesn't take a minute to launch Outlook, but I understand your pain. I keep hoping it will die, because it would be replaced with an M-series MBP and they are way, way, WAY faster than even the best Intel MBP.
- WWLink 2y ago> Even if Microsoft on Mac is an unmitigated dumpster fire, this is ridiculous. It is Microsoft. I could rant all day about the dumpster fire that is the "NEW Microsoft Teams (Work or School)" It's like the perfect shining example of how MS doesn't give a flaming fuck about their end users.
- larkost 2y agoI will pile on on MS Teams. I am on a Mac and periodically have to fight it because it went offline on me for some reason and I am no longer getting messages. Slightly less annoying is when my iPhone goes to sleep and Teams on my iPhone then sets my status to "Away", even though I am actively typing on Teams on my computer. And while my particular problems might be partially because I am on MacOS, I observe Windows-using colleagues have just as many problems joining meetings (either total refusal, no audio, or sharing issues). So I think using Teams as a measure of any computer is probably not warranted.
- bigboy12 2y agoI suppose you like bloatware and ads in your taskbar and 49 years of patch Tuesday. Have fun with that. I’ll take Mac over any windows.
- 486sx33 2y agoOutlook (old) is okay on Mac Teams is a dumpster fire on every platform
- safety1st 2y agoMeanwhile here I am, running linux distros and XFCE on everything. My hardware could be a decade old and I probably wouldn't notice. (In fact I DO have a spare 13 year old laptop hanging around that still gets used for web browsing, mail and stuff. It is not slow.)
- freedomben 2y agoIndeed, I have a 15-year-old desktop computer that is still running great on Linux. I upgraded the RAM to the maximum supported by the motherboard, which is 8 GB, and it has gone through three hard drives in its life, but otherwise it is pretty much the same. As a basic web browsing computer, and for light games, it is fantastic.
- safety1st 2y agoIt also performs pretty well for the particular brand of web development I do, which basically boils down to running VS Code, a browser, and a lot of ssh. It's fascinating to me how people are still attached to the hardware upgrade cycle as an idea that matters, and yet for a huge chunk of people and scenarios, basically an SSD, 8gb of RAM and an Intel i5 from a decade ago could have been the end of computing history with no real loss to productivity. I honestly look at people who use Apple or Windows with a bit of pity, because those ecosystems would just give me more stuff to worry about.
- kolinko 2y agoThat’s not an issue with Macboom but with MS. MS has an incentive to deliver such a terrible experience on macs.
- int_19h 2y agoMS has literally thousands of managers running Outlook and Teams on their company-provided ARM MacBooks daily.
- kagakuninja 2y agoTeams is shit, and hangs and crashes on my Mac. I blame Microsoft for that.
- al_borland 2y agoAnd they can typically setup their dev environment without a VM, while also getting commercial app support if they need it. Windows requires a VM, like WSL, for a lot of people, and Linux lacks commercial support. macOS strikes a good balance in the middle that makes it a pretty compelling choice.
- pineaux 2y agoWSL is not a VM. Edit: TIL WSL2 is a VM. I develop on mac and linux computers so should have kept my mouth shut anyways
- worthless-trash 2y agoHey, you learned and corrected yourself, dont be so hard on yourself mate.
- tomcam 2y agoUsername highly inaccurate ;)
- tomcam 2y agoDownloaded for complimenting GP? Stay classy, Hacker News
- ddingus 2y agoSeriously! I agree. They just modeled the best discussion with some of the highest value there is. Being wrong is no big deal. Being unable to be right is often a very big deal.
- shandor 2y agoJust to make sure your TIL is complete, do note that Linux containers are VMs also on MacOS :)
- ensignavenger 2y ago
- anArbitraryOne 2y agoAnd the M1 chip on mine really alters productivity. Every time we want to update a library, we need some kind of workaround. It's great having a chip that is so much different than what our production infrastructure uses.
- gibolt 2y agoThis should be a temporary problem solved with time. The battery and performance gains are completely worth most workarounds required.
- anArbitraryOne 2y agoNot worth it at all. I rarely use battery power, so I'd rather have an intel or AMD chip with more cores and a higher clock speed at the expense of the battery. Oh, and an OS that can actually manage its windows, and customize keyboard settings, and not require an account to use the app store
- airtonix 2y ago[dead]
- 76SlashDolphin 2y agoThen why are you using a Macbook in the first place? There are plenty of Ryzen 7000 and Intel Ultra laptops with similar performance out there. The key benefit of a Macbook is the battery life and sane sleeping when portable.
- anArbitraryOne 2y agoTell that to my employer
- nxicvyvy 2y agoThis hasn't been true for a long time.
- resonious 2y agoM* has caused nothing but trouble for most mac user engineers I know (read: most engineers I know) who upgraded. Now not only are they building software for a different OS, they're building for a different architecture! They do all of their important compute in Docker, wasting CPU cycles and memory on the VM. All for what: a nice case? nice UI (that pesters you to try Safari)? It looks like Apple's silicon and software is really good for those doing audio/video. Why people like it for dev is mostly a mystery to me. Though I know a few people who don't really like it but are just intimidated by Linux or just can't handle the small UX differences.
- khaki54 2y agoIt's basically required for iOS development. Working around it is extremely convoluted any annoying
- resonious 2y agoI forgot to mention that as an obvious exception. Of course developing for Apple is best on Apple hardware.
- AtomicOrbital 2y agoI strongly suggest putting in the time to learn how to install and maintain a linux laptop ... Ubuntu 24.04 is a great engineer platform
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- daviddever23box 2y agoIt is, provided that the hardware vendor has reasonably decent support for power management, and you're willing to haul around an AC adapter if not. In general, I really like AMD hardware with built-in graphics for this, or alternately, Intel Tiger Lake-U based hardware. Asahi Linux is shockingly great on Apple Silicon hardware, though.
- 2y ago
- wubrr 2y agoNo, no, no, yes.
- synergy20 2y agono, no, NO and yes. I actually rejected a job offer when heard I will be given a macbook pro. Apple, been the most closed company these days, should be avoided as much as you can, not to mention its macos is useless for linux developers like me, anything else is better. its keyboard is dumb to me(that stupid command/ctrl key difference), can not even mouse-select and paste is enough for me to avoid Macos at all costs.
- 486sx33 2y agoI think I had similar feelings but took an open mind and love my m2 pro Sometimes an open mind reaps rewards friend
- gibolt 2y agoI selected Mac + iOS devices when a job offered a choice, specifically to try out the option, while personally sticking with Windows and Android. Now the performance of Mx Macs convinced me to switch, and I'll die on the hill of Android for life
- insaneirish 2y ago> I actually rejected a job offer when heard I will be given a macbook pro. Probably best for you both.
- fastball 2y agomacOS is clearly better for linux devs than Windows, given it is unix under-the-hood. I don't even know what you mean by mouse-select and paste.
- BenjiWiebe 2y agoOn most Linux environments: text you highlight with the mouse (or highlight by double/triple clicking) can be "pasted" by middle-clicking.
- Cyphase 2y ago
- pompino 2y ago"Engineers" - ironically the term used in the software industry for people who never standardize anything, solve the same problem solved by other "engineers" over and over again (how many libraries do you need for arrays and vectors and guis and buttons and text boxes and binary trees and sorting, yada yada?) while making the same mistakes and learning the hard way each time, also vehemently argue about software being "art" might like OSX, but even that is debatable. Meanwhile actual Engineers (the ones with the license) the people who need CAD and design tools for building bridges and running manufacturing plants stay far away from OSX.
- PaulHoule 2y agoIf you look at creative pros such as photographers and Hollywood ‘film’ editors, VFX artists, etc. you will see a lot of Windows and Linux as people are more concerned about getting absolute power at a fair price and don’t care if it is big, ugly. etc.
- pompino 2y agoOh, I'm sure there are lots of creatives who use OSX, so I don't mean to suggest nobody uses OSX, so I'll admit it was a bit in jest to poke fun at the stereotype. I'm definitely oldschool - but to me It's a bit cringe to hear "Oh, I'm an engineer.." or "As an engineer.." from people sit at a coffee shop writing emails or doing the most basic s/w dev work. I truly think silicon valley people would benefit from talking to technical people who are building bridges and manufacturing plants and cars and hardware and chips and all this stuff on r/engineeringporn that everyone takes for granted. I transitioned from s/w to hardcore manufacturing 15 years ago, and it was eye opening, and very humbling.
- cpill 2y agonot machines learning Devs
- OtomotO 2y agoIf it weren't for the OS I would've bought a MacBook instead of a Lenovo laptop. I've set up my OS exactly as I want it. (I use arch btw ;-))
- tlrobinson 2y agoI don’t think it’s at all unreasonable for an engineer using a device for 8+ hours every day to pay an additional, say, 0.5% of their income (assuming very conservatively $100,000 income after tax, $1,000 extra for a MacBook, 2 year product lifespan) for the best built laptop, best screen, and best OS.
- yunobcool 2y ago$100,000 after tax does not seem conservative to me (at least outside the US).
- tlrobinson 2y ago$50,000 income, 4 year product lifespan? Obviously doesn’t apply to all engineers.
- rfoo 2y ago> and best OS I do networking stuff and macOS is on par with Windows - I can't live on it without running into bugs or very questionable behavior for longer than a week. Same as Windows.
- klabb3 2y agoWhat stuff is weird? I have so far had very good experiences with Apple (although not iOS yet). Almost everything I do on my Linux workstation works on Mac too. Windows though is beyond horrible and different in every way. > I do networking stuff Me too, but probably very different stuff. I’m doing p2p stuff over tcp and am affected mostly by sock options, buffer sizes, tcp options etc.
- sensanaty 2y ago> Best OS I like apple hardware, but their OS is fucking atrocious. In the year 2024 it still doesn't have a native volume mixer, or any kind of sensible window management shortcuts. Half the things on it have to be fixed with paid software. Complete joke of an OS, if it were up to me I'd stick a linux distro on top of the hardware and be happy
- chipdart 2y ago> Engineers use MacBook pros because it’s the best built laptop, the best screen, arguably the best OS and most importantly - they’re not the ones paying for them. I know engineers from a FANG that picked MacBook pros in spite of the specs and only because of the bling/price tag. Them they spent their whole time using it as a remote terminal for Linux servers, and they still complained about the thing being extremely short on RAM and HD. One of them even tried to convince their managers to give the vision pro a try, even though there was zero use cases for it. Granted, they drive multiple monitors well with a single USB-C plug, at least with specific combinations of monitors and hubs. It's high time that the "Apple sells high end gear" shtick is put to rest. Even their macOS treadmill is becoming tiring.
- theshrike79 2y agoThe build quality of Apple laptops is still pretty unmatched in every price category. Yes, there are 2k+ laptops from Dell/Lenovo that match and exceed a similarly priced MacBook in pure power, but usually lack battery life and/or build quality.
- amias 2y agothe more the deviate from the BSD core the worse it gets.
- theshrike79 2y agoBut I can still fire up a terminal and use all of my *nix skills to operate. I can't do that on Windows without either wrestling with PowerShell or WSL2
- yayr 2y agoApple devices also work quite seamless together. IPads for example work great as a second screen wirelessly with the MBPs. I'd immediately buy a 14 inch ipad just for that, since that is so useful when not on your standard desk. Also copy paste between devices or headphones just work... in case Apple would come up with the idea to take an ipad as external compute unit that would be amazing... just double your ram, compute and screen with it in such a lightweight form factor... should be possible if they want
- davedx 2y agoI’m freelance so I’ve absolutely paid for my last 3 Macbooks. They’re best in class tools and assets for my business.
- pjmlp 2y agoUS Engineers, and in countries of similar income, the rest of the world is pretty much settled in a mix of Windows and GNU/Linux desktop/laptops.
- PeterStuer 2y agoIf we are honest vanity signaling is a large part of it. Basically the Gucci bag equivalent for techies.
- lost_womble 2y agoHonestly not. My tests run WAY faster on Apple Silicon, that's all I care about.
- PeterStuer 2y agoNot being contrarian, but what are you comparing?
- jwr 2y ago> Engineers use MacBook pros because it’s the best built laptop, the best screen, arguably the best OS and most importantly - they’re not the ones paying for them. I am the one paying for my MacBook Pro, because my company is a self-funded business. I run my entire business on this machine and I love it. I always buy the fastest CPU possible, although I don't max out the RAM and SSD. Amusingly enough, I talked to someone recently about compilation speeds and that person asked my why I don't compile my software (Clojure and ClojureScript) on "powerful cloud servers". Well, according to Geekbench, which always correlates very well with my compilation speeds, there are very few CPUs out there that can beat my M3 Max, and those aren't easily rentable as bare-metal cloud servers. Any virtual server will be slower. So please, don't repeat the "MacBooks are for spoiled people who don't have to pay for them" trope. There are people for whom this is simply the best machine for the job at hand. Incidentally, I checked my financials: a 16" MBP with M3 and 64GB RAM, amortized over 18 months (very short!) comes out to around $150/month. That is not expensive at all for your main development machine that you run your business on!
- kaliszad 2y agoAs a Clojure/ ClojureScript developer myself I just wonder what You do that compilation is such an important part of Your workflow and at the same time don't need as much RAM as possible? Yes, the MacBook Pro isn't bad at all for Clojure(Script) development. I was pretty angry that the Lenovo ThinkPad T14 Gen3 has a full channel of soldered RAM and just a single slot for expansion since I really use a lot of RAM and would prefer to go with 64 GB full dual-channel and not a hybrid 48 GB with 32 GB being dual-channel and 16 GB being single channel. (Yes, it does actually work.) Most builds that I do are done asynchronously using GitHub Actions or similar. Yes, it does take some time but the build+deploy isn't that time sensitive.
- traceroute66 2y ago> comes out to around $150/month. Which, incidentally, is probably about 10x less than you would spend compiling your software on "powerful cloud servers". :-)
- renonce 2y ago
- TheRealDunkirk 2y agoI think relatively few corporations are offering Macs to people. It's all bog-standard POS Dells, with locked-down Windows images that often do not even allow you to change the screensaver settings or the background image, in the name of "security." I'd love to be wrong about that.
- achenet 2y agoall two jobs I've worked, both as a backend dev using Go in data-storage companies, have offered Macs. The first one, a small, badly run startup, only offered Macs. This gig, a larger company, offers Mac, Linux and Windows. I started with Linux and then switched to Mac because I was tired of stuff breaking. I use Debian + FreeBSD on my personal PCs though.
- barrenko 2y agoEngineers loving tools is peak HN :).
- BossingAround 2y agoArguably the best OS? For what? For browsing the web, video editing, etc.? Maybe. For development? Jesus, macOS doesn't even have native container support. All the devs I know with macOS then either get a second Linux laptop, or spend a lot of their time SSHd into a Linux server. For dev (at least backend and devops), macOS is not that great.
- faeriechangling 2y agoYeah it's funny for all the hoopla I've heard over the glory of MacOS having a REAL UNIX TERMINAL, WSL works better in practice simply because it's running an actual Linux VM and thus the support is better. Still, I just don't think it's that burdensome to get containers running on MacOS, it's just annoying that it happens to work worse than on Windows or Linux. Ignoring the hardware, the only real advantage to MacOS development is when you're targeting Apple products with what you're developing.
- kagakuninja 2y agoI don't know what you are talking about, I'm a back end engineer, and every company I've worked for during the last 12 years gives out MacBook pros to all devs. Even the game company that used C# and Mono gave out MacBooks (and dual booted them, which of course you can't do any more; I never bothered with Windows since our servers were written in Scala). Not all teams run tons of containers on personal computers. All our servers are running on AWS. I rarely ssh into anything. I like the fact that OS X is based on UNIX, and not some half-assed bullshit bolted onto Windows. I still have bad memories of trying to use Cygwin 15 years ago. Apparently WSL is an improvement, but I don't care. Mac runs all the software I need, and it has real UNIX shells.
- borissk 2y agoThis statement is completely wrong. There are millions of engineers in the world and most of them live in countries like China, India and Russia. Very few of them use MacBooks. The vast majority of the software engineers in big companies (that employ a lot more people than big tech and startups combined) who use Java and C# also have predominately Windows laptops (as their employers can manage Windows laptops a lot easier, have agreements with vendors like Dell to buy them with a discount, have software like AV that doesn't support MacOS, etc.). On top of that MacBooks don't have the best screens and are not the best built. Many Windows laptops have OLED screens or 4K IPS screens. There are premium Windows laptops made out of magnesium and carbon fiber.
- kagakuninja 2y agoI'm an American, so maybe the situation is different elsewhere. Every company I've worked for during the last 12 years gives out MacBook Pros. And I've been developing using Scala / Java for the last 20 years. Employers manage Macs just fine, this isn't 1999. There have been studies showing that Macs have lower IT maintenance costs compared to Windows. I admit that I haven't dealt with Windows devices in a long time, maybe there are some good ones available now, but I find your statements to be beyond belief. Apple Silicon Macs have blown the doors off the competition, out performing all but top-end Intel laptops, while using a fraction of the power (and I never even hear the fans come on).
- xedrac 2y ago"best OS" is so subjective here. I'll concede that the MacBook hardware is objectively better than any laptop I've owned. But it's a huge leap to say Mac OS is objectively better than Linux IMO.
- amelius 2y agoThey are perhaps only the best by a very small margin. I am happy to not support Apple's ecosystem and use a minimally worse laptop from a different brand.
- Hammershaft 2y agoApple's hardware these days is exceptional but the software left wanting in comparison. MacOS feels like it's been taking two steps back for every step forward for a decade now. I run MacOS, Linux w/ i3, and Windows all every day, and outside of aesthetics & apple integration MacOS feels increasingly the least coherent of the 3. The same is true of the ipad which is just a miraculous piece of hardware constrained by an impotent operating system.