4 ms·

I think the argument is quite subtle. There is a lot of book banning occurring and the rate seems to be increasing fast (see links below). There are penalties

I think the argument is quite subtle. There is a lot of book banning occurring and the rate seems to be increasing fast (see links below). There are penalties in some jurisdictions and zero teachers want to face the kind of shit that has gone on with parents and politicians, churches and local body meetings. So rather than search out each book they have and keep track of its status, then recheck a few weeks later, just remove the lot. Teachers do not have time for this crap, and why risk their jobs? It’s chilling and it’s hard to see how this isn’t the aim. ‘Who ever needed more than a bible?’ https://pen.org/report/narrating-the-crisis/ https://pen.org/report/narrating-the-crisis/ https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/16/books/book-bans-public-schools.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/16/books/book-bans-public-sc...

tivert 3y ago
> So rather than search out each book they have and keep track of its status, then recheck a few weeks later, just remove the lot. That doesn't pass the smell test. The only way I can see that being even remotely true is if the teacher's goal is mainly to push up against someone's line, politically. Even in the most hostile environment, I doubt you'd run afoul of anyone with a well-stocked library of widely beloved classic children's books.
- monknomo 3y ago
  "widely beloved" by whom? "classic" in what sense?
  - nickd2001 3y ago
    I'd think Tolkein's "The Hobbit" would fit this description? Or CS Lewis Narnia series, one-offs like "The Secret Garden", Also Edith Nesbit, fantastic children's author, "The Railway children" probably her most famous. century old at least.
    - janalsncm 3y ago
      Sure, but then you’re just reinforcing the attitude that reading is just for stodgy old people rather than a way to understand the world as it is today.
      - nickd2001 3y ago
        You need a bit of both old and new surely? I'd argue, that great literature, whether for kids or adults, is timeless. Our daughter loved learning Greek legends for example in school. The challenge I think with modern stuff can be, finding the good stuff amongst the crp. Whereas classic stuff has stood the test of time, the crp has mostly fallen by the wayside.
    - SpaceManNabs 3y ago
      The Hobbit is banned by multiple school districts. It actually pissed off a lot of teachers too. It is books like that being banned that make teachers not want to have a library at all. It is really easy to have a banned book, and teachers do not have the time to source each book in their already existing libraries. But I guess in their words: > the teacher's goal is mainly to push up against someone's line, politically
      - nickd2001 3y ago
        Wow! I'd no idea the Hobbit was banned anywhere. Madness. Its just a work of art. Hardly even controversial. Kids should be able to make their on judgement about it. People need to be allowed to think critically. I could possibly see why one might disallow, say, Mein Kampf in a school library but even then you could possibly have, for historical purposes, a copy annotated with a lot of warnings and reminders of who the author was and what he did.
      - Auracle 3y ago
        Where is The Hobbit banned? A quick Google shows some Christian schools have (though the last mention is 2011), but certainly no US public schools.
    - 3y ago
- lostlogin 3y ago
  > The only way I can see that being even remotely true is if the teacher's goal is mainly to push up against someone's line, politically. Doesn’t this swing both ways? Surely banning books is seen as a fairly extreme and intended to impose your views on someone else. What other interpretation is there?
  - tivert 3y ago
    > Doesn’t this swing both ways? Surely banning books is seen as a fairly extreme and intended to impose your views on someone else. What other interpretation is there? No. I was only responding to the false hyperbole that teachers can't keep books in their classrooms anymore. Also, the whole controversy around "banning books" is stupid and full of dumb propaganda. That extends to the term "book ban" itself, which is a bit of manipulative, misleading spin that rivals "death tax." If anyone was really against "book bans," they should demonstrate their commitment by fighting for a Hustler subscription and some "gender critical" books for every classroom. It's really a fight about who gets to do the banning.
tigen 3y ago
That pen.org article focuses on "number of bannings" but mixes together state law (predominantly Florida alone) and individual school district policy choices. It also avoids discussing which age is appropriate for these topics. Most of the support for including explicit sexual violence seems to be about high school, and even there it's not clear that explicit content is necessary to these purposes (I'm not familiar with the books in question). Then there are the books by Kendi etc. and an example where that was required reading in an AP course (college-level). Sure, that's debatable but isn't of much relevance to reading, reading for enjoyment in particular, by young kids, which is the topic of this HN post. The pen.org article says "books aren’t harmful—censorship is." So it gives no credence to any kind of concern about age-appropriate topics.
- lostlogin 3y ago
  > It also avoids discussing which age is appropriate for these topics. A professional with training and some sort of certification could decide this, based on the child’s age and development level. A teacher for example.
lelanthran 3y ago
> So rather than search out each book they have and keep track of its status, then recheck a few weeks later, This sounds like nonsense. Sure, they may have to do this for books that are close to crossing the line, or they could simply leave out any controversial book. Does that mean that the school library won't have some books? Well, yes, but they already don't stock "every book ever written". My school, back in the 80s, did not keep Nabakov's Lolita. The public library had it, though. School's aren't there to "teach the controversy". I said it back when the controversy not being taught was Intelligent Design, I stand by it in 202x when the controversy not being taught is LGBT.

tivert 3y ago

> So rather than search out each book they have and keep track of its status, then recheck a few weeks later, just remove the lot. That doesn't pass the smell test. The only way I can see that being even remotely true is if the teacher's goal is mainly to push up against someone's line, politically. Even in the most hostile environment, I doubt you'd run afoul of anyone with a well-stocked library of widely beloved classic children's books.

monknomo 3y ago
"widely beloved" by whom? "classic" in what sense?
- nickd2001 3y ago
  I'd think Tolkein's "The Hobbit" would fit this description? Or CS Lewis Narnia series, one-offs like "The Secret Garden", Also Edith Nesbit, fantastic children's author, "The Railway children" probably her most famous. century old at least.
  - janalsncm 3y ago
    Sure, but then you’re just reinforcing the attitude that reading is just for stodgy old people rather than a way to understand the world as it is today.
    - nickd2001 3y ago
      You need a bit of both old and new surely? I'd argue, that great literature, whether for kids or adults, is timeless. Our daughter loved learning Greek legends for example in school. The challenge I think with modern stuff can be, finding the good stuff amongst the crp. Whereas classic stuff has stood the test of time, the crp has mostly fallen by the wayside.
  - SpaceManNabs 3y ago
    The Hobbit is banned by multiple school districts. It actually pissed off a lot of teachers too. It is books like that being banned that make teachers not want to have a library at all. It is really easy to have a banned book, and teachers do not have the time to source each book in their already existing libraries. But I guess in their words: > the teacher's goal is mainly to push up against someone's line, politically
    - nickd2001 3y ago
      Wow! I'd no idea the Hobbit was banned anywhere. Madness. Its just a work of art. Hardly even controversial. Kids should be able to make their on judgement about it. People need to be allowed to think critically. I could possibly see why one might disallow, say, Mein Kampf in a school library but even then you could possibly have, for historical purposes, a copy annotated with a lot of warnings and reminders of who the author was and what he did.
    - Auracle 3y ago
      Where is The Hobbit banned? A quick Google shows some Christian schools have (though the last mention is 2011), but certainly no US public schools.
  - 3y ago
lostlogin 3y ago
> The only way I can see that being even remotely true is if the teacher's goal is mainly to push up against someone's line, politically. Doesn’t this swing both ways? Surely banning books is seen as a fairly extreme and intended to impose your views on someone else. What other interpretation is there?
- tivert 3y ago
  > Doesn’t this swing both ways? Surely banning books is seen as a fairly extreme and intended to impose your views on someone else. What other interpretation is there? No. I was only responding to the false hyperbole that teachers can't keep books in their classrooms anymore. Also, the whole controversy around "banning books" is stupid and full of dumb propaganda. That extends to the term "book ban" itself, which is a bit of manipulative, misleading spin that rivals "death tax." If anyone was really against "book bans," they should demonstrate their commitment by fighting for a Hustler subscription and some "gender critical" books for every classroom. It's really a fight about who gets to do the banning.

tigen 3y ago

That pen.org article focuses on "number of bannings" but mixes together state law (predominantly Florida alone) and individual school district policy choices. It also avoids discussing which age is appropriate for these topics. Most of the support for including explicit sexual violence seems to be about high school, and even there it's not clear that explicit content is necessary to these purposes (I'm not familiar with the books in question). Then there are the books by Kendi etc. and an example where that was required reading in an AP course (college-level). Sure, that's debatable but isn't of much relevance to reading, reading for enjoyment in particular, by young kids, which is the topic of this HN post. The pen.org article says "books aren’t harmful—censorship is." So it gives no credence to any kind of concern about age-appropriate topics.

lostlogin 3y ago
> It also avoids discussing which age is appropriate for these topics. A professional with training and some sort of certification could decide this, based on the child’s age and development level. A teacher for example.

lelanthran 3y ago

> So rather than search out each book they have and keep track of its status, then recheck a few weeks later, This sounds like nonsense. Sure, they may have to do this for books that are close to crossing the line, or they could simply leave out any controversial book. Does that mean that the school library won't have some books? Well, yes, but they already don't stock "every book ever written". My school, back in the 80s, did not keep Nabakov's Lolita. The public library had it, though. School's aren't there to "teach the controversy". I said it back when the controversy not being taught was Intelligent Design, I stand by it in 202x when the controversy not being taught is LGBT.