6 ms·

At what point do we say "This company is rotten to the core and needs shut down"? This article alleges that they may be falsifying safety stuff! It's not like

by ItsBob 2y ago

At what point do we say "This company is rotten to the core and needs shut down"? This article alleges that they may be falsifying safety stuff! It's not like they're making lollipops ffs... they're transporting millions of people per day in things that cannot afford to have issues... ever! Sure, I understand that the media has them under a spotlight right now but even so! On another note this quote got me laughing: "Stocker said the company would “celebrate” the employee who spoke up." "Yeah, Mike, just step out the back while Tony and Big Joe celebrate you in the alleyway here"! :)

hnthrowaway0328 2y ago
Boeing is in the position of TBTF. The best can happen is a change of management but this doesn't solve anything. Good leadership does not grow like grass, and if the soil is corrupt none grows.
- andkenneth 2y ago
  IMO there needs to be personal criminal responsibility for safety related issues in an engineering org like this. We did this in New Zealand a few years back, you can get prosecuted and sent to prison for wilfully ignoring safety issues that cause serious injury or death, and that responsibility exists at every level up to the board.
SteveNuts 2y ago
I’m not knowledgeable in this area, is there any precedent or legal method for the US government unilaterally shutting down a large publicly traded conglomerate (purely as a hypothetical)? Not that I think they’d actually do it, I’m just curious if it’s even possible. I imagine they could bog them down with lawsuits but Boeing has a deep war chest and it would take many years.
- jmyeet 2y ago
  Yes, the US can nationalize a company. And it's happened before [1]. The current political climate means there's no appetite for any party to alienate actual or potential donors by doing something like this however. The one exception is banks where the FDIC can (and does) take over nonperforming banks all the time [2]. Think of it as eminent domain but for companies. [1]: https://thenextsystem.org/history-of-nationalization-in-the-us https://thenextsystem.org/history-of-nationalization-in-the-... [2]: https://www.fdic.gov/resources/resolutions/bank-failures/in-brief/index.html https://www.fdic.gov/resources/resolutions/bank-failures/in-...
- brookst 2y ago
  Not just Boeing, all of their shareholders, including institutional ones. This would essentially be an edict that the stock price is now $0, modulo liquidation plans. But I don’t think you could declare the company too rotten to operate and also sell off its operations, so enterprise value would be best case. Oh, and many of its assets in the form of planes would presumably be instantly devalued/worthless. It’s a fun hypothetical (unless you work for Boeing), but I don’t think there’s a legal precedent or a good outcome even if it were possible.
  - pjc50 2y ago
    This would almost certainly fail legally on "taking" grounds. It also fails politically, since Boeing is a critical US defence contractor, and the US is not going to cut off its supply of parts for military aircraft. Killing Boeing is a fantasy.
  - ensignavenger 2y ago
    A more practical approach would be to fine them a huge amount of money after a fair investigation and trial. Then, when the company is forced to declare bankruptcy or is on the brink of it, the US Government could buy the company out of bankruptcy, replacing all executive management and run it for a enough time to ensure that corrections have been implemented, then the Government could take the company public again and divest itself.
- ItsBob 2y ago
  Not sure about the US but in the UK, the government can close companies down for things like not filing taxes or failing to pay them for example. So it wouldn't be outwith the realms of possibility that a company making planes that are potentially unsafe could have their doors closed! I'm not mega pro-government intervention but there are times I'd like to think my gov has my back... this is one of them!
- adgjlsfhk1 2y ago
  shutting it fully down would likely be very difficult, but the FAA definitely has the authority to not certify any Boeing planes for a couple years and let Boeing go bankrupt
  - swasheck 2y ago
    you’ve heard how the government certifies these things right? they allow the company to inspect and certify.
    - adgjlsfhk1 2y ago
      yes. they can stop doing that (and in fact have already walked back some of that)
    - p_l 2y ago
      Because Bush Jr. government policy ordered them to and reduced funding for inspections.
- clarionbell 2y ago
  In principle it is possible. But shutdown isn't what you want. Because that would cause job losses, collapse of supply chain and all of that horror. You need restructuring. Replace management, take control over the direction. Keep things running while the mess is resolved. It's not going to be fast, an it's not going to look nice. But at this point there are no other options.
- GartzenDeHaes 2y ago
  The federal government did take over GM somehow. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_Chapter_11_reorganization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_Chapter_11_reor...

by ItsBob 2y ago

hnthrowaway0328 2y ago

Boeing is in the position of TBTF. The best can happen is a change of management but this doesn't solve anything. Good leadership does not grow like grass, and if the soil is corrupt none grows.

andkenneth 2y ago
IMO there needs to be personal criminal responsibility for safety related issues in an engineering org like this. We did this in New Zealand a few years back, you can get prosecuted and sent to prison for wilfully ignoring safety issues that cause serious injury or death, and that responsibility exists at every level up to the board.

SteveNuts 2y ago

I’m not knowledgeable in this area, is there any precedent or legal method for the US government unilaterally shutting down a large publicly traded conglomerate (purely as a hypothetical)? Not that I think they’d actually do it, I’m just curious if it’s even possible. I imagine they could bog them down with lawsuits but Boeing has a deep war chest and it would take many years.

jmyeet 2y ago
Yes, the US can nationalize a company. And it's happened before [1]. The current political climate means there's no appetite for any party to alienate actual or potential donors by doing something like this however. The one exception is banks where the FDIC can (and does) take over nonperforming banks all the time [2]. Think of it as eminent domain but for companies. [1]: https://thenextsystem.org/history-of-nationalization-in-the-us https://thenextsystem.org/history-of-nationalization-in-the-... [2]: https://www.fdic.gov/resources/resolutions/bank-failures/in-brief/index.html https://www.fdic.gov/resources/resolutions/bank-failures/in-...
brookst 2y ago
Not just Boeing, all of their shareholders, including institutional ones. This would essentially be an edict that the stock price is now $0, modulo liquidation plans. But I don’t think you could declare the company too rotten to operate and also sell off its operations, so enterprise value would be best case. Oh, and many of its assets in the form of planes would presumably be instantly devalued/worthless. It’s a fun hypothetical (unless you work for Boeing), but I don’t think there’s a legal precedent or a good outcome even if it were possible.
- pjc50 2y ago
  This would almost certainly fail legally on "taking" grounds. It also fails politically, since Boeing is a critical US defence contractor, and the US is not going to cut off its supply of parts for military aircraft. Killing Boeing is a fantasy.
- ensignavenger 2y ago
  A more practical approach would be to fine them a huge amount of money after a fair investigation and trial. Then, when the company is forced to declare bankruptcy or is on the brink of it, the US Government could buy the company out of bankruptcy, replacing all executive management and run it for a enough time to ensure that corrections have been implemented, then the Government could take the company public again and divest itself.
ItsBob 2y ago
Not sure about the US but in the UK, the government can close companies down for things like not filing taxes or failing to pay them for example. So it wouldn't be outwith the realms of possibility that a company making planes that are potentially unsafe could have their doors closed! I'm not mega pro-government intervention but there are times I'd like to think my gov has my back... this is one of them!
adgjlsfhk1 2y ago
shutting it fully down would likely be very difficult, but the FAA definitely has the authority to not certify any Boeing planes for a couple years and let Boeing go bankrupt
- swasheck 2y ago
  you’ve heard how the government certifies these things right? they allow the company to inspect and certify.
  - adgjlsfhk1 2y ago
    yes. they can stop doing that (and in fact have already walked back some of that)
  - p_l 2y ago
    Because Bush Jr. government policy ordered them to and reduced funding for inspections.
clarionbell 2y ago
In principle it is possible. But shutdown isn't what you want. Because that would cause job losses, collapse of supply chain and all of that horror. You need restructuring. Replace management, take control over the direction. Keep things running while the mess is resolved. It's not going to be fast, an it's not going to look nice. But at this point there are no other options.
GartzenDeHaes 2y ago
The federal government did take over GM somehow. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_Chapter_11_reorganization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_Chapter_11_reor...