5 ms·

Well, I can nitpick some of what you said but I largely agree. I think it's not crazy to call Israel's policies in the WB apartheid, effectively, or at least th

by edanm 2y ago

Well, I can nitpick some of what you said but I largely agree. I think it's not crazy to call Israel's policies in the WB apartheid, effectively, or at least there's a real case to be made there, though I think you're right about the actual effects of using it as a political flattening, and applying it to all of Israel doesn't make sense. > So, no, I'm not convinced that Western pro-Palestinians are not on some level intentionally genocidal. I cannot otherwise explain the level of hate and vitriol directed at Israel way out of proportion to any other conflict or situation on the planet. Well I think the fact that many focus on Israel specifically is anti-semitic, at least at the top. I think 90% of people are followers, and are jumping on this cause just because it's popular, without necessarily understanding it in the context of the rest of what's happening around the world. I wouldn't call any of that genocidal though, that's a pretty high bar.

rendall 2y ago
I'd balk too except for the Western left's response to October 7th. Immediate celebration. One American professor at Cornell described himself as exhilerated! [1] "This is what resistance looks like" say others. Tearing down missing posters. Exhileration followed by mass protests. Against Israel. On October 8th! Even before Israel could collect its dead. Using the inevitably incorrect rumors that develop in the panic that follows any disaster ("I heard there were 40 beheaded babies!" "A woman was raped while her baby was burned alive in the oven!") to discredit any actual atrocity ("This is a disinformation campaign by Israel! 40 beheaded babies is absurd. Hamas targeted only soldiers."[2][3]) Women's rights organizations who have yet to condemn the rape of Israeli women as a tool of terror [4]. Denial that there was any rape. Denial that children were murdered. Claims that the hostages were volunteers. Claims that the attack was by Israel, akshually. Claims that Israel staged the whole thing in order to justify genocide. UNWRA materials for children glorifying martyrdom. Even here on YN the only political articles of any kind that make it through the filter are those critical of Israel. It goes on. And on. If you don't find that convincing I unfortunately can drop loads more genocide- and rape-apologia - as long as it's perpetrated against "Zionists" (wink). You might begin to see why I honestly think anti-Zionism is at best genocidal-adjacent. [1] https://youtu.be/_foZMY8xfD8 https://youtu.be/_foZMY8xfD8 [2] https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2023/10/31/post-falsely-claims-newspaper-reported-no-babies-beheaded-hamas-israel-fact-check/71394076007/ https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2023/10/31/post... [3] https://youtu.be/VL5ACBwO9cg https://youtu.be/VL5ACBwO9cg I find this asshole mortifying. Within hours of his hearing about the attack, you can see him in real time struggling to convert the atrocity into something anti-Israel. [4] https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/04/october-7-hamas-sexual-assault/678091/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/04/october-7-...
- edanm 2y ago
  You don't need to convince me that there's been a lot of awful reactions to October 7th. I'm only pushing back that saying something like this: > You might begin to see why I honestly think anti-Zionism is at best genocidal-adjacent. Is painting too many people with too broad a brush. Yes, some protesters are genocidal. But it's a tiny minority of protesters, and all of these frankly disgusting anecdotes are a tiny percentage of the people engaged on this topic.
  - rendall 2y ago
    Ok. I will cheerfully agree to disagree while also conceding that your point is arguable.
    - rendall 2y ago
      Except... Here is an open letter from the Jewish students at Columbia. Their experience there sounds pretty terrifying. Imagine yourself going through these experiences: https://docs.google.com/document/u/1/d/e/2PACX-1vRQgyDhIjZupO2H-2rIDXLy_zkf76RoM-_ZIYsOfn9FkI7TETgRtOfXK9VobMvGh6iEZfDPgALXJTCR/pub https://docs.google.com/document/u/1/d/e/2PACX-1vRQgyDhIjZup... Do leftists who call for Israelis to "return to Europe" not know the A) centuries of stark, genocidal oppression against Jews in Europe nor B) that many Israeli Jews are in Israel because they have been expelled from Arab and Middle-East countries where their ancestors have lived for centuries? There is no "back home" to go to for these people. One could argue these Western leftists earnestly care for Palestinians, but why? Why do they care about these particular Arabs and not the 1M+ other deaths of Muslims in current conflicts? What is the difference? When I look back at the literally genocidal pograms by Levantine Arabs against Levantine Jews in an unbroken timeline of violence from 1850s, continuing through the 1920s and al-Husseini's agreements with Hitler in WW2, and the continuing violence right now, the repeated rejections of compromise and peace, the insistence on "all the land or death", is super clear to me that the "pro-Palestine" movement is and has always been genocidal. It is not and has never been about sovereignty or self-determination. Do Western leftists not know this? Do they not care? They certainly don't want to hear about it.

by edanm 2y ago

rendall 2y ago

I'd balk too except for the Western left's response to October 7th. Immediate celebration. One American professor at Cornell described himself as exhilerated! [1] "This is what resistance looks like" say others. Tearing down missing posters. Exhileration followed by mass protests. Against Israel. On October 8th! Even before Israel could collect its dead. Using the inevitably incorrect rumors that develop in the panic that follows any disaster ("I heard there were 40 beheaded babies!" "A woman was raped while her baby was burned alive in the oven!") to discredit any actual atrocity ("This is a disinformation campaign by Israel! 40 beheaded babies is absurd. Hamas targeted only soldiers."[2][3]) Women's rights organizations who have yet to condemn the rape of Israeli women as a tool of terror [4]. Denial that there was any rape. Denial that children were murdered. Claims that the hostages were volunteers. Claims that the attack was by Israel, akshually. Claims that Israel staged the whole thing in order to justify genocide. UNWRA materials for children glorifying martyrdom. Even here on YN the only political articles of any kind that make it through the filter are those critical of Israel. It goes on. And on. If you don't find that convincing I unfortunately can drop loads more genocide- and rape-apologia - as long as it's perpetrated against "Zionists" (wink). You might begin to see why I honestly think anti-Zionism is at best genocidal-adjacent. [1] https://youtu.be/_foZMY8xfD8 https://youtu.be/_foZMY8xfD8 [2] https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2023/10/31/post-falsely-claims-newspaper-reported-no-babies-beheaded-hamas-israel-fact-check/71394076007/ https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2023/10/31/post... [3] https://youtu.be/VL5ACBwO9cg https://youtu.be/VL5ACBwO9cg I find this asshole mortifying. Within hours of his hearing about the attack, you can see him in real time struggling to convert the atrocity into something anti-Israel. [4] https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/04/october-7-hamas-sexual-assault/678091/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/04/october-7-...

edanm 2y ago
You don't need to convince me that there's been a lot of awful reactions to October 7th. I'm only pushing back that saying something like this: > You might begin to see why I honestly think anti-Zionism is at best genocidal-adjacent. Is painting too many people with too broad a brush. Yes, some protesters are genocidal. But it's a tiny minority of protesters, and all of these frankly disgusting anecdotes are a tiny percentage of the people engaged on this topic.
- rendall 2y ago
  Ok. I will cheerfully agree to disagree while also conceding that your point is arguable.
  - rendall 2y ago
    Except... Here is an open letter from the Jewish students at Columbia. Their experience there sounds pretty terrifying. Imagine yourself going through these experiences: https://docs.google.com/document/u/1/d/e/2PACX-1vRQgyDhIjZupO2H-2rIDXLy_zkf76RoM-_ZIYsOfn9FkI7TETgRtOfXK9VobMvGh6iEZfDPgALXJTCR/pub https://docs.google.com/document/u/1/d/e/2PACX-1vRQgyDhIjZup... Do leftists who call for Israelis to "return to Europe" not know the A) centuries of stark, genocidal oppression against Jews in Europe nor B) that many Israeli Jews are in Israel because they have been expelled from Arab and Middle-East countries where their ancestors have lived for centuries? There is no "back home" to go to for these people. One could argue these Western leftists earnestly care for Palestinians, but why? Why do they care about these particular Arabs and not the 1M+ other deaths of Muslims in current conflicts? What is the difference? When I look back at the literally genocidal pograms by Levantine Arabs against Levantine Jews in an unbroken timeline of violence from 1850s, continuing through the 1920s and al-Husseini's agreements with Hitler in WW2, and the continuing violence right now, the repeated rejections of compromise and peace, the insistence on "all the land or death", is super clear to me that the "pro-Palestine" movement is and has always been genocidal. It is not and has never been about sovereignty or self-determination. Do Western leftists not know this? Do they not care? They certainly don't want to hear about it.