4 ms·

> to a certain extent Wang Huning's thesis about America is right What is that?

alephnerd 2y ago
Hyper-individualism leading to a nihilistic worldview. Individuals absolutely should have autonomy to choose what they wish to do, but not if it has an impact on the rest of society. Fundamentally, some amount of regulation (either via social norms or via actual laws) is needed, yet we as individuals will continue to fight each other while ignoring the core fact that we are all on the same team. I strongly disagree with Wang and Xi, but on this part I am in agreement - individualism has gone too far in America (both economically and socially), and we need to return to our communitarian roots.
- jimbokun 2y ago
  Patriotism previously worked as a check on hyper individualism in the US, tying people to a shared sense of national community. Now that we collectively know too much about the harms perpetrated by our government, we have also lost that sense of unity and shared values and purpose.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    Pretty much. Access to information isn't bad, but we also need to remember that we're all part of the same team. Increasingly, partisans on both sides of the political and social aisle don't actually care about the opposing side. They just want to win. And this is why countries like Russia, China, and Iran have been so successful at weaponizing disinformation - it's being used by partisans on both sides to undermine the other, leading to chaos.
- Nasrudith 2y ago
  I haven't seen any evidence against "communitarianism" just being authoritarianism with happy words painted over it, pretending that there is a mandate of a community behind the dictators and oppression.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    > "communitarianism" just being authoritarianism with happy words painted over it There are various different definitions of "communitarianism" but the idealized American Town Hall model of direct democracy is a direct example of communitarianism at the local level. Political Scientists and Philosophers (all of whom are mainstream btw) like Michael Walzer, Robert Putnam, Charles Taylor, and Michael Sandel all touch on a light form of communitarianism that directly connects with Democracy.
walleeee 2y ago
In a word, that it is a civilization without society, or perhaps a society without culture, which (by this lack) is engineering its own decay.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  Not exactly. It's hard to translate but I'd recommend taking a read.
  - walleeee 2y ago
    You wouldn't say "civilization without society" is pretty close to your first two paragraphs in your comment? Maybe I need a refresher.
    - alephnerd 2y ago
      "Society" and "Civilization" are very loaded terms, and by "Society" Wang specifically meant the community aspect of society. For example, he is very positive about the kind of direct democracy he saw in Belmont, MA (the classic New England Town Meeting), and viewed that as a cornerstone of American society, along with a shared vision of innovation and development. Fundamentally, the core pieces of America that Wang looked up to were the same pieces of policy and legislation that were pushed in the Progressive Era [0] as well as by FDR as part of his New Deal [1] and LBJ as part of his Great Society [2]. In essence, the vision that Wang and Xi are pushing within China today is basically an Authoritarian but also decentralized version of the Great Society and New Deal. [0] - https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/us-history/rise-to-world-power/age-of-empire/a/the-progressive-era https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/us-history/rise-to-wo... [1] - https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/us-history/rise-to-world-power/great-depression/a/the-new-deal https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/us-history/rise-to-wo... [2] - https://library.fiveable.me/apush/unit-8/great-society/study-guide/5lE2fsg4BsckTqmDNJqx https://library.fiveable.me/apush/unit-8/great-society/study...
      - walleeee 2y ago

Hyper-individualism leading to a nihilistic worldview. Individuals absolutely should have autonomy to choose what they wish to do, but not if it has an impact on the rest of society. Fundamentally, some amount of regulation (either via social norms or via actual laws) is needed, yet we as individuals will continue to fight each other while ignoring the core fact that we are all on the same team. I strongly disagree with Wang and Xi, but on this part I am in agreement - individualism has gone too far in America (both economically and socially), and we need to return to our communitarian roots.

jimbokun 2y ago
Patriotism previously worked as a check on hyper individualism in the US, tying people to a shared sense of national community. Now that we collectively know too much about the harms perpetrated by our government, we have also lost that sense of unity and shared values and purpose.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  Pretty much. Access to information isn't bad, but we also need to remember that we're all part of the same team. Increasingly, partisans on both sides of the political and social aisle don't actually care about the opposing side. They just want to win. And this is why countries like Russia, China, and Iran have been so successful at weaponizing disinformation - it's being used by partisans on both sides to undermine the other, leading to chaos.
Nasrudith 2y ago
I haven't seen any evidence against "communitarianism" just being authoritarianism with happy words painted over it, pretending that there is a mandate of a community behind the dictators and oppression.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  > "communitarianism" just being authoritarianism with happy words painted over it There are various different definitions of "communitarianism" but the idealized American Town Hall model of direct democracy is a direct example of communitarianism at the local level. Political Scientists and Philosophers (all of whom are mainstream btw) like Michael Walzer, Robert Putnam, Charles Taylor, and Michael Sandel all touch on a light form of communitarianism that directly connects with Democracy.

walleeee 2y ago

In a word, that it is a civilization without society, or perhaps a society without culture, which (by this lack) is engineering its own decay.

alephnerd 2y ago
Not exactly. It's hard to translate but I'd recommend taking a read.
- walleeee 2y ago
  You wouldn't say "civilization without society" is pretty close to your first two paragraphs in your comment? Maybe I need a refresher.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    "Society" and "Civilization" are very loaded terms, and by "Society" Wang specifically meant the community aspect of society. For example, he is very positive about the kind of direct democracy he saw in Belmont, MA (the classic New England Town Meeting), and viewed that as a cornerstone of American society, along with a shared vision of innovation and development. Fundamentally, the core pieces of America that Wang looked up to were the same pieces of policy and legislation that were pushed in the Progressive Era [0] as well as by FDR as part of his New Deal [1] and LBJ as part of his Great Society [2]. In essence, the vision that Wang and Xi are pushing within China today is basically an Authoritarian but also decentralized version of the Great Society and New Deal. [0] - https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/us-history/rise-to-world-power/age-of-empire/a/the-progressive-era https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/us-history/rise-to-wo... [1] - https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/us-history/rise-to-world-power/great-depression/a/the-new-deal https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/us-history/rise-to-wo... [2] - https://library.fiveable.me/apush/unit-8/great-society/study-guide/5lE2fsg4BsckTqmDNJqx https://library.fiveable.me/apush/unit-8/great-society/study...
    - walleeee 2y ago