7 ms·

> They are definitely not genocidal... I'll just direct you to the Hamas Charter (pdf): https://www.palestine-studies.org/sites/default/files/attachments/jps-a

> They are definitely not genocidal... I'll just direct you to the Hamas Charter (pdf): https://www.palestine-studies.org/sites/default/files/attachments/jps-articles/2538093.pdf https://www.palestine-studies.org/sites/default/files/attach... Also to the history of Arab violence on Jews, both in the Levant and in the Middle East in general: https://medium.com/@Ksantini/the-list-of-crimes-committed-by-muslims-against-jews-since-the-7th-century-0ff1a8eb0ad0 https://medium.com/@Ksantini/the-list-of-crimes-committed-by... Also to the latest attack on October 7th. > There are genuinely pro-peace people on all sides of these issues, and pretending they don't exist is exactly the kind of rhetorical message that leads to more hate and violence. No one pretends they don't exist. I genuinely love them. They are considered traitors and get a lot of hate, but all the more power and support to them. But it's foolish to pretend they are not rare. John Aziz is amazing: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/01/gaza-israel-air-strike-family-home/677016/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/01/gaza-israe... Not supporting a two-state solution is genocidal, because it would require putting people who have explicitly stated that they want to kill Jews, in power. By their statements and behavior, Hamas, with overwhelming Gazan support, want a 1-state solution with Muslims in charge.

edanm 2y ago
I don't think we're disagreeing about any facts here, only framing. I wrote: >> > They are definitely not genocidal... You responded: > I'll just direct you to the Hamas Charter (pdf) But I was specifically talking in that line about the Western pro-Palestinian movement, not Hamas. In other parts of my comment, I specifically called out the position of the PA as the official representative of the Palestinians. You really don't need to remind me of the actions of Hamas. I agree with you about them. They are clearly genocidal and, more importantly, anti-peace. (I say more importantly because they can't actually commit genocide, but they can and have blocked peace from happening.)
- rendall 2y ago
  > But I was specifically talking in that line about the Western pro-Palestinian movement, not Hamas. Oh I see. I did misunderstand. But, honestly, I'm not so sure. Maybe you and I consume different news sources, but organizations and movements I once considered to be bastions of Western morality continue to distort the reality of the conflict so egregiously that I have a hard time understanding how it could be accidental. Continuing to report Hamas statistics without qualification and then using them to accuse Israel of "genocide" is unconscionable, for instance. In 2021, the UN Human Rights Council published a resolution titled "Human rights in the occupied Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem, and in Israel," which accused Israel of widespread abuses without substantial mention of the barrage of rocket attacks from Hamas that provoked some of these responses. This selective reporting led readers to believe that Israel was the primary aggressor in the conflict. In May 2021, during a conflict between Israel and Hamas, the BBC headlined, "Israel intensifies attacks in Gaza as conflict escalates," without equally highlighting the hundreds of rockets fired into civilian areas of Israel by Hamas. This portrayal skewed public perception, framing Israel as the initiator rather than acting in retaliation. In April 2021, HRW released a report titled "A Threshold Crossed: Israeli Authorities and the Crimes of Apartheid and Persecution." This report categorically labeled Israel as an apartheid state, a term deeply contentious and debated, suggesting an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by Jewish Israelis over Palestinians. In February 2022, Amnesty International issued a report stating that Israel's policies towards Palestinians amount to apartheid. The report asserts, "Israel’s cruel policies of segregation, dispossession, and exclusion across all territories under its control clearly amount to apartheid." This statement casts Israel's actions and policies in strictly negative terms, intensifying global anti-Israel sentiment without a balanced discussion of the complex security and political challenges that inform these policies. Labeling Israel's policies as "apartheid" is both inappropriate and harmful because it inaccurately applies a term specifically defined under international law to the unique and complex Arab-Israeli conflict. Apartheid, as legally defined, refers to an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over another. The situation in Israel and the Palestinian territories involves a national and territorial conflict, marked by security concerns and political disputes that differ fundamentally from the racial segregation and legal discrimination that characterized apartheid in South Africa. Using the term "apartheid" to describe the Israeli-Palestinian context distorts understanding by simplifying a multifaceted conflict into a one-dimensional moral failing, which undermines the nuanced approach needed to resolve such disputes. It prevents meaningful dialogue, polarizes opinions, and can incite further tension by misrepresenting the nature of the conflict. This characterization shifts focus from seeking viable solutions to assigning blame, which is counterproductive for peace efforts and does a disservice to both Israelis and Palestinians who are impacted by these complex issues. While I'm sure that many leftists think "Free Palestine" means freedom, self-rule, sovereignty, I know that the movement depends on that ambiguity to dog whistle to racists who, unfortunately, infect some of our human rights watch dogs. So, no, I'm not convinced that Western pro-Palestinians are not on some level intentionally genocidal. I cannot otherwise explain the level of hate and vitriol directed at Israel way out of proportion to any other conflict or situation on the planet.
  - edanm 2y ago
    Well, I can nitpick some of what you said but I largely agree. I think it's not crazy to call Israel's policies in the WB apartheid, effectively, or at least there's a real case to be made there, though I think you're right about the actual effects of using it as a political flattening, and applying it to all of Israel doesn't make sense. > So, no, I'm not convinced that Western pro-Palestinians are not on some level intentionally genocidal. I cannot otherwise explain the level of hate and vitriol directed at Israel way out of proportion to any other conflict or situation on the planet. Well I think the fact that many focus on Israel specifically is anti-semitic, at least at the top. I think 90% of people are followers, and are jumping on this cause just because it's popular, without necessarily understanding it in the context of the rest of what's happening around the world. I wouldn't call any of that genocidal though, that's a pretty high bar.
    - rendall 2y ago
      I'd balk too except for the Western left's response to October 7th. Immediate celebration. One American professor at Cornell described himself as exhilerated! [1] "This is what resistance looks like" say others. Tearing down missing posters. Exhileration followed by mass protests. Against Israel. On October 8th! Even before Israel could collect its dead. Using the inevitably incorrect rumors that develop in the panic that follows any disaster ("I heard there were 40 beheaded babies!" "A woman was raped while her baby was burned alive in the oven!") to discredit any actual atrocity ("This is a disinformation campaign by Israel! 40 beheaded babies is absurd. Hamas targeted only soldiers."[2][3]) Women's rights organizations who have yet to condemn the rape of Israeli women as a tool of terror [4]. Denial that there was any rape. Denial that children were murdered. Claims that the hostages were volunteers. Claims that the attack was by Israel, akshually. Claims that Israel staged the whole thing in order to justify genocide. UNWRA materials for children glorifying martyrdom. Even here on YN the only political articles of any kind that make it through the filter are those critical of Israel. It goes on. And on. If you don't find that convincing I unfortunately can drop loads more genocide- and rape-apologia - as long as it's perpetrated against "Zionists" (wink). You might begin to see why I honestly think anti-Zionism is at best genocidal-adjacent. [1] https://youtu.be/_foZMY8xfD8 https://youtu.be/_foZMY8xfD8 [2] https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2023/10/31/post-falsely-claims-newspaper-reported-no-babies-beheaded-hamas-israel-fact-check/71394076007/ https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2023/10/31/post... [3] https://youtu.be/VL5ACBwO9cg https://youtu.be/VL5ACBwO9cg I find this asshole mortifying. Within hours of his hearing about the attack, you can see him in real time struggling to convert the atrocity into something anti-Israel. [4] https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/04/october-7-hamas-sexual-assault/678091/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/04/october-7-...

edanm 2y ago

I don't think we're disagreeing about any facts here, only framing. I wrote: >> > They are definitely not genocidal... You responded: > I'll just direct you to the Hamas Charter (pdf) But I was specifically talking in that line about the Western pro-Palestinian movement, not Hamas. In other parts of my comment, I specifically called out the position of the PA as the official representative of the Palestinians. You really don't need to remind me of the actions of Hamas. I agree with you about them. They are clearly genocidal and, more importantly, anti-peace. (I say more importantly because they can't actually commit genocide, but they can and have blocked peace from happening.)

rendall 2y ago
> But I was specifically talking in that line about the Western pro-Palestinian movement, not Hamas. Oh I see. I did misunderstand. But, honestly, I'm not so sure. Maybe you and I consume different news sources, but organizations and movements I once considered to be bastions of Western morality continue to distort the reality of the conflict so egregiously that I have a hard time understanding how it could be accidental. Continuing to report Hamas statistics without qualification and then using them to accuse Israel of "genocide" is unconscionable, for instance. In 2021, the UN Human Rights Council published a resolution titled "Human rights in the occupied Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem, and in Israel," which accused Israel of widespread abuses without substantial mention of the barrage of rocket attacks from Hamas that provoked some of these responses. This selective reporting led readers to believe that Israel was the primary aggressor in the conflict. In May 2021, during a conflict between Israel and Hamas, the BBC headlined, "Israel intensifies attacks in Gaza as conflict escalates," without equally highlighting the hundreds of rockets fired into civilian areas of Israel by Hamas. This portrayal skewed public perception, framing Israel as the initiator rather than acting in retaliation. In April 2021, HRW released a report titled "A Threshold Crossed: Israeli Authorities and the Crimes of Apartheid and Persecution." This report categorically labeled Israel as an apartheid state, a term deeply contentious and debated, suggesting an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by Jewish Israelis over Palestinians. In February 2022, Amnesty International issued a report stating that Israel's policies towards Palestinians amount to apartheid. The report asserts, "Israel’s cruel policies of segregation, dispossession, and exclusion across all territories under its control clearly amount to apartheid." This statement casts Israel's actions and policies in strictly negative terms, intensifying global anti-Israel sentiment without a balanced discussion of the complex security and political challenges that inform these policies. Labeling Israel's policies as "apartheid" is both inappropriate and harmful because it inaccurately applies a term specifically defined under international law to the unique and complex Arab-Israeli conflict. Apartheid, as legally defined, refers to an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over another. The situation in Israel and the Palestinian territories involves a national and territorial conflict, marked by security concerns and political disputes that differ fundamentally from the racial segregation and legal discrimination that characterized apartheid in South Africa. Using the term "apartheid" to describe the Israeli-Palestinian context distorts understanding by simplifying a multifaceted conflict into a one-dimensional moral failing, which undermines the nuanced approach needed to resolve such disputes. It prevents meaningful dialogue, polarizes opinions, and can incite further tension by misrepresenting the nature of the conflict. This characterization shifts focus from seeking viable solutions to assigning blame, which is counterproductive for peace efforts and does a disservice to both Israelis and Palestinians who are impacted by these complex issues. While I'm sure that many leftists think "Free Palestine" means freedom, self-rule, sovereignty, I know that the movement depends on that ambiguity to dog whistle to racists who, unfortunately, infect some of our human rights watch dogs. So, no, I'm not convinced that Western pro-Palestinians are not on some level intentionally genocidal. I cannot otherwise explain the level of hate and vitriol directed at Israel way out of proportion to any other conflict or situation on the planet.
- edanm 2y ago
  Well, I can nitpick some of what you said but I largely agree. I think it's not crazy to call Israel's policies in the WB apartheid, effectively, or at least there's a real case to be made there, though I think you're right about the actual effects of using it as a political flattening, and applying it to all of Israel doesn't make sense. > So, no, I'm not convinced that Western pro-Palestinians are not on some level intentionally genocidal. I cannot otherwise explain the level of hate and vitriol directed at Israel way out of proportion to any other conflict or situation on the planet. Well I think the fact that many focus on Israel specifically is anti-semitic, at least at the top. I think 90% of people are followers, and are jumping on this cause just because it's popular, without necessarily understanding it in the context of the rest of what's happening around the world. I wouldn't call any of that genocidal though, that's a pretty high bar.
  - rendall 2y ago
    I'd balk too except for the Western left's response to October 7th. Immediate celebration. One American professor at Cornell described himself as exhilerated! [1] "This is what resistance looks like" say others. Tearing down missing posters. Exhileration followed by mass protests. Against Israel. On October 8th! Even before Israel could collect its dead. Using the inevitably incorrect rumors that develop in the panic that follows any disaster ("I heard there were 40 beheaded babies!" "A woman was raped while her baby was burned alive in the oven!") to discredit any actual atrocity ("This is a disinformation campaign by Israel! 40 beheaded babies is absurd. Hamas targeted only soldiers."[2][3]) Women's rights organizations who have yet to condemn the rape of Israeli women as a tool of terror [4]. Denial that there was any rape. Denial that children were murdered. Claims that the hostages were volunteers. Claims that the attack was by Israel, akshually. Claims that Israel staged the whole thing in order to justify genocide. UNWRA materials for children glorifying martyrdom. Even here on YN the only political articles of any kind that make it through the filter are those critical of Israel. It goes on. And on. If you don't find that convincing I unfortunately can drop loads more genocide- and rape-apologia - as long as it's perpetrated against "Zionists" (wink). You might begin to see why I honestly think anti-Zionism is at best genocidal-adjacent. [1] https://youtu.be/_foZMY8xfD8 https://youtu.be/_foZMY8xfD8 [2] https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2023/10/31/post-falsely-claims-newspaper-reported-no-babies-beheaded-hamas-israel-fact-check/71394076007/ https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2023/10/31/post... [3] https://youtu.be/VL5ACBwO9cg https://youtu.be/VL5ACBwO9cg I find this asshole mortifying. Within hours of his hearing about the attack, you can see him in real time struggling to convert the atrocity into something anti-Israel. [4] https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/04/october-7-hamas-sexual-assault/678091/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/04/october-7-...