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FTL: "... while more than 100 journalists were killed in six months in Gaza by the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) ..." Anyone know where to find what the current

by loceng 2y ago

FTL: "... while more than 100 journalists were killed in six months in Gaza by the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) ..." Anyone know where to find what the current accurate count of number of journalists killed in the Gaza bombardment to date? Last I heard it was 170. There are also journalists who lived but their whole family died in the strikes.

verdverm 2y ago
It is unlikely that reliable numbers will come out of Gaza with the media blackout and two sides who both want to present information "favorably" At least until the war has subsided and independent orgs can gain access.
- no_exit 2y ago
  Gaza Health Ministry numbers are a reliable floor, as confirmed by numerous organizations like the US State Department. The real count probably above 100k dead so far.
  - YZF 2y ago
    I don't think this is true. Can you refer to the US State Department official position on this? It's true that in previous conflicts the numbers were in the ballpark but the breakdown between e.g. combatants and civilians was not. This conflict is very different so I don't think we should be extrapolating. https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/04/09/hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry-admits-to-flaws-in-casualty-data/ https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/04/09/hamas-run-gaza-healt...
  - verdverm 2y ago
    100k would be well above any estimates I've seen from any source This is the best meta-analysis I've seen: https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/gaza-fatality-data-has-become-completely-unreliable https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/gaza-fat... Here is another that questions the statistics of the underlying reported data: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/terror-and-security/unrwa-staff-death-toll-gaza-israel-hamas-war-data/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/terror-and-securit...
    - licebmi__at__ 2y ago
      I will say that both analysis seem really repugnant. Specially the first one that first acknowledges the obvious limitation that "only a third of Gaza’s hospitals are even partially functional", to then push the idea that the MOH trying to work under that limitation is an attempt of manipulation. It's absurd to think that releasing less numbers would paint a more accurate picture; but I guess some side would appreciate if people stop counting the dead.
  - weatherlite 2y ago
    No 10 millions at least
  - TiredOfLife 2y ago
    I think you mean ceiling.
  - victorbjorklund 2y ago
    Dont you mean Hamas numbers are a reliable cieling? Why would Hamas undersestimate the number of dead Hamas members/civilians?
    - bishbosh 2y ago
      They are correct in saying it's a reliable floor. From AP: >HOW DOES THE MINISTRY ARRIVE AT A DEATH TOLL? >Gaza’s most widely quoted source on casualties is Health Ministry spokesperson Ashraf al-Qidra. From an office at Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, al-Qidra receives a constant flow of data from every hospital in the strip. >Hospital administrators say they keep records of every wounded person occupying a bed and every dead body arriving at a morgue. They enter this data into a computerized system shared with al-Qidra and colleagues. According to screenshots hospital directors sent to AP, the system looks like a color-coded spreadsheet divided into categories: name, ID number, date of hospital entry, type of injury, condition. Given this, it is entirely possible that there are additional dead that otherwise do not make it to the hospital morgue, those lost in rubble, those left behind, or cases were the violence was so great there is no body to note. To your question Hamas has made a point to be conservative and validate the death tolls, meaning that there are likely a great number of dead that don't reach these standards and are not counted. [0] https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033 https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-mini...
bawolff 2y ago
Do these numbers distinguish between journalists killed while doing journalism vs journalists killed as collateral damage not in the capacity of a journalist vs combatants who were journalists prior to picking up a gun and joining the war? I feel like its very hard to draw any conclusions from these numbers without distinguishing between those cases (other than of course that war is a tragedy and innocents generally pay the price of war).
- loceng 2y ago
  Isn't it any less worse that 170+ journalists were killed among the 30,000+ civilians? And no, it's unlikely these are journalists who picked up a gun - the IDF is dropping up to 2,000 Lbs bombs, and that's possibly how many are killed; however there have been many reports of journalists homes being targeted in direct strikes, at least one journalist I heard who's wife and children/whole family were killed but he wasn't. It's not surprising in reality if it's 170+ journalists amongst 30,000+ killed. There are videos of IDF soldiers harassing and brutally assaulting journalists, if that's any indication of the rules of engagement they subscribe to; I'm obviously not linking to any here on HN - this topic is already a minefield. What HN is missing is going one layer up, where all of the various points brought up are catalogued-organized - and then allow a second round of discussion, perhaps with a more sophisticated UI/UX for people (from "both"/all sides) to contribute things like citations to evidence/data support the claim/statements, etc; and then those cited sources and data could also then be another layer deeper to constrain or contain further contextualized-narrowed conversation to the analysis of those sources.
  - bawolff 2y ago
    > Isn't it any less worse that 170+ journalists were killed among the 30,000+ civilians? Yes. One is a clear cut war crime, the other is not. (Or at least not in and of itself. There are of course factors that could make those civilian deaths be a war crime, but it depends on the circumstances.) (To be clear, what i am saying is that intentionally targeting journalists (who have not picked up a gun and joined the fight) is an unambigious war crime. Killing journalists incidentally while targeting something else may or may not be a war crime depending on all sorts of factors) I consider things that are war crimes to be much worse than things that are not. So i do think there is a big difference between the two scenarios. I think its also important to recognize that this sort of thing has huge propaganda value for the Palestinian side, so its important to be careful when evaluating circumstantial evidence (and to be clear i would say that about any side in any war when it comes to information that makes their oponent look bad). As the saying goes, truth is the first casualty of war. It can be very difficult to know what is going on in the middle of a conflict.
Qem 2y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_i...
- YZF 2y ago
  Like anything coming from Gaza I have some doubts about how legit this data is. This list has 96 total in Gaza since the beginning of the war. So not 170. Many of the names use this reference: "97 journalists and media workers were confirmed dead: 92 Palestinian, 2 Israeli, and 3 Lebanese." https://cpj.org/2024/05/journalist-casualties-in-the-israel-gaza-conflict/ https://cpj.org/2024/05/journalist-casualties-in-the-israel-... Is media worker always a journalist? The list seems in disagreement with the other list. Also if you work for Hamas or Palestinian Islamic Jihad are you a journalist? Where does that line pass? Are IDF media people journalists or are they soldiers? Either way, even by the most generous interpretation not everyone on that list is a journalist. e.g. a "a sound engineer working for the Gaza’s Hamas government owned Al-Rai radio and freelancing for other local radio stations" is not a journalist. I would trust the list a lot more if there was a reference to their work. Are they published journalists? The list says nothing about what media they worked for. Random e.g. on the list uses Al Jazeera as a reference: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/1/8/israel-war-on-gaza-world-must-look-says-wael-dahdouh-as-son-killed?update=2604870 https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/1/8/israel-war-... "Gaza’s Government Media Office has confirmed the deaths of two more Palestinian journalists – Abdullah Baris and Muhammad Abu Dayer" A journalist should mean "a person who writes for newspapers, magazines, or news websites or prepares news to be broadcast.", is there a list that includes what newpapers, magazines, or news websites those people worked for? I drilled down the wikidata reference link from the article. Some of the people have some references to them being journalists. Others don't. EDIT: Btw the list of clarifications in the bottom of the CPJ source is also interesting. "CPJ has removed two Israeli journalists, Shai Regev and Ayelet Arnin, from this list after their outlets confirmed that the journalists were not on assignment to cover the music festival, nor did they have any opportunity to begin reporting on the attack by Hamas militants that killed them on October 7. CPJ’s global database of killed journalists includes only those who have been killed in connection with their work or where there is still some doubt that their death was work-related." I don't see any evidence that the Gazans reported killed were killed in connection with their work. "After receiving reports that Palestinian journalist and presenter Alaa Taher Al-Hassanat may have survived the attack thought to have killed her, CPJ has removed her name from its casualties list pending further investigation." - so people are sometimes reported killed but aren't. "CPJ has removed a Palestinan man, Mohamed Khaireddine, from this list. Khaireddine was previously identified as a journalist, but his family later clarified that he was neither a journalist nor a media support worker." - so we have people reported as journalists by someone ... but aren't. also: "The list below is CPJ’s most recent and preliminary account of journalist deaths in the war. Our database will not include all of these casualties until we have completed further investigations into the circumstances surrounding them." EDIT2: This is a more in-depth analysis of the specific journalists and their affiliations from the Israeli side: https://www.terrorism-info.org.il/app/uploads/2024/02/E_013_24.pdf https://www.terrorism-info.org.il/app/uploads/2024/02/E_013_...
Protostome 2y ago
The border between journalists and militants is quite blurry in Gaza. Many of the so-called journalists actively participated in the 7/10 massacre.

by loceng 2y ago

verdverm 2y ago

It is unlikely that reliable numbers will come out of Gaza with the media blackout and two sides who both want to present information "favorably" At least until the war has subsided and independent orgs can gain access.

no_exit 2y ago
Gaza Health Ministry numbers are a reliable floor, as confirmed by numerous organizations like the US State Department. The real count probably above 100k dead so far.
- YZF 2y ago
  I don't think this is true. Can you refer to the US State Department official position on this? It's true that in previous conflicts the numbers were in the ballpark but the breakdown between e.g. combatants and civilians was not. This conflict is very different so I don't think we should be extrapolating. https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/04/09/hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry-admits-to-flaws-in-casualty-data/ https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/04/09/hamas-run-gaza-healt...
- verdverm 2y ago
  100k would be well above any estimates I've seen from any source This is the best meta-analysis I've seen: https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/gaza-fatality-data-has-become-completely-unreliable https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/gaza-fat... Here is another that questions the statistics of the underlying reported data: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/terror-and-security/unrwa-staff-death-toll-gaza-israel-hamas-war-data/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/terror-and-securit...
  - licebmi__at__ 2y ago
    I will say that both analysis seem really repugnant. Specially the first one that first acknowledges the obvious limitation that "only a third of Gaza’s hospitals are even partially functional", to then push the idea that the MOH trying to work under that limitation is an attempt of manipulation. It's absurd to think that releasing less numbers would paint a more accurate picture; but I guess some side would appreciate if people stop counting the dead.
- weatherlite 2y ago
  No 10 millions at least
- TiredOfLife 2y ago
  I think you mean ceiling.
- victorbjorklund 2y ago
  Dont you mean Hamas numbers are a reliable cieling? Why would Hamas undersestimate the number of dead Hamas members/civilians?
  - bishbosh 2y ago
    They are correct in saying it's a reliable floor. From AP: >HOW DOES THE MINISTRY ARRIVE AT A DEATH TOLL? >Gaza’s most widely quoted source on casualties is Health Ministry spokesperson Ashraf al-Qidra. From an office at Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, al-Qidra receives a constant flow of data from every hospital in the strip. >Hospital administrators say they keep records of every wounded person occupying a bed and every dead body arriving at a morgue. They enter this data into a computerized system shared with al-Qidra and colleagues. According to screenshots hospital directors sent to AP, the system looks like a color-coded spreadsheet divided into categories: name, ID number, date of hospital entry, type of injury, condition. Given this, it is entirely possible that there are additional dead that otherwise do not make it to the hospital morgue, those lost in rubble, those left behind, or cases were the violence was so great there is no body to note. To your question Hamas has made a point to be conservative and validate the death tolls, meaning that there are likely a great number of dead that don't reach these standards and are not counted. [0] https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033 https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-mini...

bawolff 2y ago

Do these numbers distinguish between journalists killed while doing journalism vs journalists killed as collateral damage not in the capacity of a journalist vs combatants who were journalists prior to picking up a gun and joining the war? I feel like its very hard to draw any conclusions from these numbers without distinguishing between those cases (other than of course that war is a tragedy and innocents generally pay the price of war).

loceng 2y ago
Isn't it any less worse that 170+ journalists were killed among the 30,000+ civilians? And no, it's unlikely these are journalists who picked up a gun - the IDF is dropping up to 2,000 Lbs bombs, and that's possibly how many are killed; however there have been many reports of journalists homes being targeted in direct strikes, at least one journalist I heard who's wife and children/whole family were killed but he wasn't. It's not surprising in reality if it's 170+ journalists amongst 30,000+ killed. There are videos of IDF soldiers harassing and brutally assaulting journalists, if that's any indication of the rules of engagement they subscribe to; I'm obviously not linking to any here on HN - this topic is already a minefield. What HN is missing is going one layer up, where all of the various points brought up are catalogued-organized - and then allow a second round of discussion, perhaps with a more sophisticated UI/UX for people (from "both"/all sides) to contribute things like citations to evidence/data support the claim/statements, etc; and then those cited sources and data could also then be another layer deeper to constrain or contain further contextualized-narrowed conversation to the analysis of those sources.
- bawolff 2y ago
  > Isn't it any less worse that 170+ journalists were killed among the 30,000+ civilians? Yes. One is a clear cut war crime, the other is not. (Or at least not in and of itself. There are of course factors that could make those civilian deaths be a war crime, but it depends on the circumstances.) (To be clear, what i am saying is that intentionally targeting journalists (who have not picked up a gun and joined the fight) is an unambigious war crime. Killing journalists incidentally while targeting something else may or may not be a war crime depending on all sorts of factors) I consider things that are war crimes to be much worse than things that are not. So i do think there is a big difference between the two scenarios. I think its also important to recognize that this sort of thing has huge propaganda value for the Palestinian side, so its important to be careful when evaluating circumstantial evidence (and to be clear i would say that about any side in any war when it comes to information that makes their oponent look bad). As the saying goes, truth is the first casualty of war. It can be very difficult to know what is going on in the middle of a conflict.

Qem 2y ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_i...

YZF 2y ago
Like anything coming from Gaza I have some doubts about how legit this data is. This list has 96 total in Gaza since the beginning of the war. So not 170. Many of the names use this reference: "97 journalists and media workers were confirmed dead: 92 Palestinian, 2 Israeli, and 3 Lebanese." https://cpj.org/2024/05/journalist-casualties-in-the-israel-gaza-conflict/ https://cpj.org/2024/05/journalist-casualties-in-the-israel-... Is media worker always a journalist? The list seems in disagreement with the other list. Also if you work for Hamas or Palestinian Islamic Jihad are you a journalist? Where does that line pass? Are IDF media people journalists or are they soldiers? Either way, even by the most generous interpretation not everyone on that list is a journalist. e.g. a "a sound engineer working for the Gaza’s Hamas government owned Al-Rai radio and freelancing for other local radio stations" is not a journalist. I would trust the list a lot more if there was a reference to their work. Are they published journalists? The list says nothing about what media they worked for. Random e.g. on the list uses Al Jazeera as a reference: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/1/8/israel-war-on-gaza-world-must-look-says-wael-dahdouh-as-son-killed?update=2604870 https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/1/8/israel-war-... "Gaza’s Government Media Office has confirmed the deaths of two more Palestinian journalists – Abdullah Baris and Muhammad Abu Dayer" A journalist should mean "a person who writes for newspapers, magazines, or news websites or prepares news to be broadcast.", is there a list that includes what newpapers, magazines, or news websites those people worked for? I drilled down the wikidata reference link from the article. Some of the people have some references to them being journalists. Others don't. EDIT: Btw the list of clarifications in the bottom of the CPJ source is also interesting. "CPJ has removed two Israeli journalists, Shai Regev and Ayelet Arnin, from this list after their outlets confirmed that the journalists were not on assignment to cover the music festival, nor did they have any opportunity to begin reporting on the attack by Hamas militants that killed them on October 7. CPJ’s global database of killed journalists includes only those who have been killed in connection with their work or where there is still some doubt that their death was work-related." I don't see any evidence that the Gazans reported killed were killed in connection with their work. "After receiving reports that Palestinian journalist and presenter Alaa Taher Al-Hassanat may have survived the attack thought to have killed her, CPJ has removed her name from its casualties list pending further investigation." - so people are sometimes reported killed but aren't. "CPJ has removed a Palestinan man, Mohamed Khaireddine, from this list. Khaireddine was previously identified as a journalist, but his family later clarified that he was neither a journalist nor a media support worker." - so we have people reported as journalists by someone ... but aren't. also: "The list below is CPJ’s most recent and preliminary account of journalist deaths in the war. Our database will not include all of these casualties until we have completed further investigations into the circumstances surrounding them." EDIT2: This is a more in-depth analysis of the specific journalists and their affiliations from the Israeli side: https://www.terrorism-info.org.il/app/uploads/2024/02/E_013_24.pdf https://www.terrorism-info.org.il/app/uploads/2024/02/E_013_...

Protostome 2y ago

The border between journalists and militants is quite blurry in Gaza. Many of the so-called journalists actively participated in the 7/10 massacre.