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True, It is the Zionists. I can see the vast majority of the faith are against this inhuman occupation and genocide. Especially those who have first hand experi

True, It is the Zionists. I can see the vast majority of the faith are against this inhuman occupation and genocide. Especially those who have first hand experience of the holocaust. At any point opposing the genocidal regime should not equate to hating on the people. The regime wants it and thrives on it.

rendall 2y ago
"The Zionists" is a dog whistle. Nobody would care about "The Zionists" if they weren't Jews. We know this because Israel's neighbors kill and displace Muslims at a far greater rate than Israel would even dream, and no one is out there protesting, building encampments and roughing up passersby. Rational arguments for Israel are dismissed out of hand by "anti-Zionists" such as yourself because "The Zionists always lie". Mitigating history is simply elided. Rockets fired indiscriminately into civilian population centers by Palestinians are "resistance". Intifada after Israeli peace offers are "resistance". Murdering civilians is "resistance". Military campaigns to end this behavior is "genocide". Dog whistle, through and through. The pro-Palestinian movement has a literal, direct, documented connection to Nazis, and its behavior is entirely dedicated to the elimination of the only Jewish state in existence without compromise or negotiation, yet it's "The Zionists" who are accused of genocide.
- runarberg 2y ago
  There are so many untrue statements in this post, I don’t even know where to begin: > Israel's neighbors kill and displace Muslims at a far greater rate than Israel would even dream What are you talking about? Are you saying that Israel wants to kill Muslims? Israel has so far killed over 34000 Palestinians in the ongoing genocide. This level of killing is nowhere to be found in the neighboring region. You’ll have to go all the way to Sudan to find a similar number, where there is a civil war, and (yes) a plausible genocide. Even before Oct 7. in 2023 alone Israel killed at least 278 Palestinians in the West Bank (including 70 children). You don’t see these kind of number in the neighboring countries. > The pro-Palestinian movement has a literal, direct, documented connection to Nazis Where? Can you provide me with a source. I don’t recall this in the news. And even if they did, this does not negate the Palestinian cause. If a particular member of a particular movement has documented connection to Nazis, and said movement does not kick that person out and denounce them, then that single movement should be denounced, and this would not affect other movements. > and its behavior is entirely dedicated to the elimination of the only Jewish state in existence without compromise or negotiation I’ll leave aside for a moment the fact that you take it as a given that a particular groups should have an ethno-state deticated to them, but who wants to eliminate Israel without compromise or negotiations? Most of everybody wants negotiations, even staunch proponents of a 1-state solution usually want guaranteed civil rights to Jews and Arabs alike (albeit, sometimes omitting recent settlers in occupied West Bank from this). Even Hamas is currently advocating for a 2 state solution with a right to return for displaced Palestinians. Who is this group that doesn’t want any compromise or negotiations. Honestly Israel is much more uncompromising than any pro-Palestinian actor. That said, being against an ethno-state is not an unreasonable, nor a racist position to take. A lot of people wanted Rhodesia to stop existing, they were not racists, they simply didn’t think it was reasonable that a segregationist settler colonial state should exist on indigenous lands. > "The Zionists" is a dog whistle It is not. Zionism is an ideology distinct from Judasim. There are plenty of non-zionist Jews, and even more non-Jewish Zionists. Zionism is neither a necessary, nor a sufficient condition of Judaism. Most pro-Palistinian demonstrators do in fact call out non-Jewish zionists, such as Joe Biden, all the time.
  - rendall 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - edanm 2y ago
      > As for the Nazi origins of the pro-Palestinian movement, it starts in the 1920s with al-Husseini, the mufti of Jerusalem, who hated Jews so much he met with Hitler to discuss solutions to his own "Jewish Problem". This is why "pro Palestine" is today not about peace and sovereignty for the Palestinian people. It is about the elimination of the state - and people - of Israel. Really listen to the protesters. You went further in this comment than the previous one, claiming that the pro-Palestinian movement has Nazi origins (meaning it originate via Nazism). This is pretty false. And for many people, "Pro Palestine" is about peace and sovereignity for the Palestinian people. For others it isn't. I don't think you should paint the whole movement with the same brush so easily.
      - rendall 2y ago
        We Westerners want peace, prosperity and sovereignty for Palestinians. For us, a 2 state solution seems so reasonable. But we're not the ones who matter. Among Palestinians and Arabs in general, advocates for a 2-state peaceful coexistence is such a miniscule minority that yes, you can effectively paint the entire pro-Palestinian movement as genocidal. This is hard for Westerners to swallow, but that is the reality.
        edanm 2y ago
        No, I still disagree, on a few points: 1) The official position of most Arab countries is aiming for a 2 state solution, iirc. The Palestinian Authority - which is the effective government of the West Bank Palestinians, and the official representative of Palestinians - officially recognize the State of Israel and endorse a two state solution. Yes, support among the populace right now is weak - both Israelis and Palestinians - but that's probably because of the breakdown of the peace talks and living for the last 15 years in a situation in which Israel itself isn't really pursuing any kind of peace. 2) You write: "you can effectively paint the entire pro-Palestinian movement as genocidal." Even if they don't support a two-state solution, calling them genocidal is going way too far. 3) When you talk about the "entire pro-Palestinian movement", it sounds like you're including the Western pro-Palestinian movement as well. They are definitely not genocidal, and very relevant in the current context. 4) Most importantly - the best way to get to peace isn't to ignore the peaceful voices on either side as fringe, it's to amplify them. There are genuinely pro-peace people on all sides of these issues, and pretending they don't exist is exactly the kind of rhetorical message that leads to more hate and violence. "No one on the other side is reasonable" is both wrong, and very harmful.

rendall 2y ago

"The Zionists" is a dog whistle. Nobody would care about "The Zionists" if they weren't Jews. We know this because Israel's neighbors kill and displace Muslims at a far greater rate than Israel would even dream, and no one is out there protesting, building encampments and roughing up passersby. Rational arguments for Israel are dismissed out of hand by "anti-Zionists" such as yourself because "The Zionists always lie". Mitigating history is simply elided. Rockets fired indiscriminately into civilian population centers by Palestinians are "resistance". Intifada after Israeli peace offers are "resistance". Murdering civilians is "resistance". Military campaigns to end this behavior is "genocide". Dog whistle, through and through. The pro-Palestinian movement has a literal, direct, documented connection to Nazis, and its behavior is entirely dedicated to the elimination of the only Jewish state in existence without compromise or negotiation, yet it's "The Zionists" who are accused of genocide.

runarberg 2y ago
There are so many untrue statements in this post, I don’t even know where to begin: > Israel's neighbors kill and displace Muslims at a far greater rate than Israel would even dream What are you talking about? Are you saying that Israel wants to kill Muslims? Israel has so far killed over 34000 Palestinians in the ongoing genocide. This level of killing is nowhere to be found in the neighboring region. You’ll have to go all the way to Sudan to find a similar number, where there is a civil war, and (yes) a plausible genocide. Even before Oct 7. in 2023 alone Israel killed at least 278 Palestinians in the West Bank (including 70 children). You don’t see these kind of number in the neighboring countries. > The pro-Palestinian movement has a literal, direct, documented connection to Nazis Where? Can you provide me with a source. I don’t recall this in the news. And even if they did, this does not negate the Palestinian cause. If a particular member of a particular movement has documented connection to Nazis, and said movement does not kick that person out and denounce them, then that single movement should be denounced, and this would not affect other movements. > and its behavior is entirely dedicated to the elimination of the only Jewish state in existence without compromise or negotiation I’ll leave aside for a moment the fact that you take it as a given that a particular groups should have an ethno-state deticated to them, but who wants to eliminate Israel without compromise or negotiations? Most of everybody wants negotiations, even staunch proponents of a 1-state solution usually want guaranteed civil rights to Jews and Arabs alike (albeit, sometimes omitting recent settlers in occupied West Bank from this). Even Hamas is currently advocating for a 2 state solution with a right to return for displaced Palestinians. Who is this group that doesn’t want any compromise or negotiations. Honestly Israel is much more uncompromising than any pro-Palestinian actor. That said, being against an ethno-state is not an unreasonable, nor a racist position to take. A lot of people wanted Rhodesia to stop existing, they were not racists, they simply didn’t think it was reasonable that a segregationist settler colonial state should exist on indigenous lands. > "The Zionists" is a dog whistle It is not. Zionism is an ideology distinct from Judasim. There are plenty of non-zionist Jews, and even more non-Jewish Zionists. Zionism is neither a necessary, nor a sufficient condition of Judaism. Most pro-Palistinian demonstrators do in fact call out non-Jewish zionists, such as Joe Biden, all the time.
- rendall 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - edanm 2y ago
    > As for the Nazi origins of the pro-Palestinian movement, it starts in the 1920s with al-Husseini, the mufti of Jerusalem, who hated Jews so much he met with Hitler to discuss solutions to his own "Jewish Problem". This is why "pro Palestine" is today not about peace and sovereignty for the Palestinian people. It is about the elimination of the state - and people - of Israel. Really listen to the protesters. You went further in this comment than the previous one, claiming that the pro-Palestinian movement has Nazi origins (meaning it originate via Nazism). This is pretty false. And for many people, "Pro Palestine" is about peace and sovereignity for the Palestinian people. For others it isn't. I don't think you should paint the whole movement with the same brush so easily.
    - rendall 2y ago
      We Westerners want peace, prosperity and sovereignty for Palestinians. For us, a 2 state solution seems so reasonable. But we're not the ones who matter. Among Palestinians and Arabs in general, advocates for a 2-state peaceful coexistence is such a miniscule minority that yes, you can effectively paint the entire pro-Palestinian movement as genocidal. This is hard for Westerners to swallow, but that is the reality.
      - edanm 2y ago
        No, I still disagree, on a few points: 1) The official position of most Arab countries is aiming for a 2 state solution, iirc. The Palestinian Authority - which is the effective government of the West Bank Palestinians, and the official representative of Palestinians - officially recognize the State of Israel and endorse a two state solution. Yes, support among the populace right now is weak - both Israelis and Palestinians - but that's probably because of the breakdown of the peace talks and living for the last 15 years in a situation in which Israel itself isn't really pursuing any kind of peace. 2) You write: "you can effectively paint the entire pro-Palestinian movement as genocidal." Even if they don't support a two-state solution, calling them genocidal is going way too far. 3) When you talk about the "entire pro-Palestinian movement", it sounds like you're including the Western pro-Palestinian movement as well. They are definitely not genocidal, and very relevant in the current context. 4) Most importantly - the best way to get to peace isn't to ignore the peaceful voices on either side as fringe, it's to amplify them. There are genuinely pro-peace people on all sides of these issues, and pretending they don't exist is exactly the kind of rhetorical message that leads to more hate and violence. "No one on the other side is reasonable" is both wrong, and very harmful.