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The Runners Who Went So Hard They Were Never the Same
- cma 2y agoCan anyone summarize what happened in a couple sentences so we don't have to listen to a whole podcast
- el_oni 2y agoYou can read the transcript. It's over training syndrome, caused by too much training without enough rest. The athletes that try to push through struggle to perform as well.
- ReverseCold 2y agoTL;DR: It’s not good to exercise too much with no rest. Your body won’t actually be able to repair itself to how you were before the workout, let alone improve at all. Someone’s coach gave them a training plan that was bad and caused this.
- raffraffraff 2y agoThanks. Pretty obvious I would have thought. Or are people just watching to many Marvel/D.C. movies?
- alamortsubite 2y agoFor a highly motivated person in their late teens/early twenties, being coached by professionals, and on the path to competing in the Olympics, it may not be so obvious. The transcript is worth a read.
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- samspenc 2y ago[flagged]
- noman-land 2y agoI just want to go out of my way to say that I didn't read this.
- mtreis86 2y agoArticle references this https://www.outsideonline.com/health/training-performance/running-empty/ https://www.outsideonline.com/health/training-performance/ru...
- moneywoes 2y agoAny strength and running training plans?
- marban 2y agoI once ran ~500 half-marathons in two years (non-competitive). There's no such thing as overtraining; there's only under-recovery and a lack of balance with nutrition.
- readthenotes1 2y agoThe article took way too many words to drift around to that point (that they misnamed it and all the stresses in life mattered at that level)...
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- ErikAugust 2y agoThat’s not comparable to running 100mile mountain ultras at course record paces.
- chefkd 2y agoKind of weird question: my feet blister so much like used to walk miles without that happening but after moving to the US it became such a regular thing. Is this common? Are there any preventative measures one could take?
- financltravsty 2y agoDid you change your clothing (shoes & socks)? Getting away from cotton socks (wool or polyester) is the most common fix. Getting shoes that fit your feet well is another big one. Also, are you walking a similar amount as where you came from? Changes here could impact walking form (i.e. forgetting how to walk).
- chefkd 2y agoNo long trail walking usually or drifting. Thank you for the wool suggestion I've heard they dry a lot faster as well. I used to walk 4-7 miles to and from school. Now I drift which may be up to 10 miles per day could that be the only issue here?
- sutro 2y agoI suffer from a related condition called UTS - under training syndrome. For reasons that remain a mystery to doctors and scientists I struggle to complete ultramarathons after not training for them.
- itronitron 2y agoI've never struggled to complete an ultramarathon (of anything).
- adingus 2y agoPlease don't make dumb reddit style comments
- Dah00n 2y agoPodcast transcripts on HN? What's next? YouTube subtitles hosted on Git, linked on HN?
- Mtinie 2y agoPersonally, I appreciate the transcript. I don’t enjoy listening to podcasts so having access to the info without having to force myself to listen is nice.
- ultrarunner 2y agoHere to point out that while a slight flavor of this can happen, it's wildly unlikely for most people. Rest and recovery are indeed important, but the vast majority of people are not fit (or genetically gifted) enough to train on a level that can result in OTS.
- timothytran 2y agoI’ll share one anecdote I’ve noticed among all my ultra-runner friends: they all look much older than their age. Although marathons are probably good for the cardiovascular system, the lifestyle seems to age people brutally fast.
- grvdrm 2y agoI agree with your anecdote but on an even shorter scale. Normal running. I’m in a running club that spans casual runners to 5x per year marathoners. Most of the folks running more look, well, aged.
- jodleif 2y agoPeople usually look older when they have a lower body fat percentage. Edit: also add in potentially more UV exposure due to above average time spent outside in the sun
- timothytran 2y agoMost of the people I know are very athletic with low body fat. But only the ultra-runners look gaunt and old. Normal runners don’t seem as affected. I think the ultra part visibly wears people out.
- jodleif 2y agoYeah, though ultra runners optimise towards low muscle low fat, which really doesn’t fit the current athletic stereotype
- jodleif 2y agoCould not edit, so adding it here- also likely much more UV exposure than average (especially compared to office workers) due to active lifestyle might also be a factor
- timothytran 2y agoAnother factor I’ve noticed is vegetarians and vegans. Always look much older.
- macNchz 2y agoI listened to this episode when it first came out, and what stuck with me was the discussion with a doctor who contrasts a weekend warrior who runs a ton, has a high stress job, little kids, and gets very little sleep with an Olympic athlete who sleeps 15 hours a day and has no major life responsibility outside of training. Stress and lack of sleep take a huge toll, and amateur endurance sports seem to attract ultra-achievers who also have lots of ambition in their careers.
- phaedrus 2y agoI wonder if a similar thing can happen with non-physical pursuits (specifically, coding) if relentlessly forced to over-do one thing over a long period of time. Overwork/over-stress early in my software development career led to a permanent reduction in my rate of being able to produce lines of code for any reason (work or personal projects). I relate to a lot what the podcast said comparing it to being a six-cylinder engine only running on four cylinders, a feeling of there being depths you have (or had) that you can't access anymore. Obviously the word "burn out" comes to mind, and certainly related to that, but burn out implies an acute condition and this is not exactly it. I never got totally burned out, it was just my rate of writing code got slower... and slower. Part of this was undiagnosed (until late in life) ADHD, and like the woman in the podcast I tried to make up for it by doubling down until I couldn't anymore. It got to the point that trying to write code was like force un-pausing a video that's buffering until the frame rate starts stuttering, or holding down the flush lever after the toilet tank is empty. Much like how the person profiled in the episode was eventually able to take up a new sport of endurance running because she can handle suffering through that but cannot do the type of running at the intense pace she used to do, I am now happily for many years employed in a government job. I have the capacity to "suffer" through months- or years-long red tape processes because it matches the reduced pace at which I can now produce lines of code - or I avoid it altogether by using my experience to solve problems in other ways.
- camgunz 2y ago> I wonder if a similar thing can happen with non-physical pursuits (specifically, coding) if relentlessly forced to over-do one thing over a long period of time. I've seen this happen to other people and mildly had it happen to me, so yeah I'm convinced it's a thing. I'm probably back to 80-85% of what I was, but it's been almost 10 years, so age (I'm now 40) has maybe made that my new ceiling. > ...experience Even though my raw LOC has declined, I'm a much better engineer than I was 10 years ago. I credit being better able to avoid big bads and pick probable right answers because of experience. I've focused on being a better systems thinker rather than like, nailing algorithms and such, and I think that's been an important part of my recovery: one using other parts of my brain and finding something else to be interested in, and two broadening my thinking.
- jl2718 2y agoThis is going to be too long and off-the-cuff, but... I have a weakly-held theory that Overtraining Syndrome may be a neurological autoimmune disorder. I have some personal experience from a very long time ago at a sub-elite level with this as I was diagnosed with the classic ectopic arrhythmia sign where several doctors told me to stop ALL training, and I know of at least one other case that caused the retirement of a reigning world champion. The muscle feeling for me was that training results in numbness, no longer soreness, which was weird and felt like under-training. I do think that poor sleep and anemia were primary factors just as the athlete in the podcast. To explain, I will go into some uncommon detail about training and recovery. Training starts with adrenaline, and results in a lot of protein breakdown. Recovery begins with the immune system picking up these proteins and releasing prostglandins and other hormones to create inflammation and suppress macrophages from the immune system. Without sufficient suppression, you get damage, most of which can be reversed quickly with local satellite cells, but nerves are harder to repair, which is why you see long-term nervous system manifestations of most autoimmune disorders. Also note the NSAID link. This is theory connecting some dots, but the feeling is where it started. Hard to explain: difficulty engaging strength, burning pain and tingling etc. I also want to make a different point about the training cycle that they mention. The pull-down pop-up phenomenon, which is the cycle of training, then rest, then higher performance, occurs over a few days, and is almost entirely due to increasing neurotransmitter levels. In simple terms, you are teaching your body to go harder, but the actual muscles aren't changing much. Actual muscular adaptation requires much longer timeframes. If you are just starting any exercise, your fist improvement is your form, then your adrenaline, then your glycogen capacity, then your insulin sensitivity, then your lung efficiency, then your heart vascularization, then your sweat glands, then your bodyweight, then your muscle fiber density, then your muscle fiber quantity. That timeline is somewhere from years to decades, and only the inflammation and adrenaline works on that short-term cycle. Put another way, your physical capacity is not greatly improved after one week of training-recovery cycle. It's actually surprising how little of each season's improvement actually survives a month off, but yet how much a decade of elite training survives years of rest. This is controversial, but if your goal doesn't require near-max performance, then you can ignore the short-term cycle. For instance, to lose weight, it's best not to use this cycle because recovery is much longer in caloric deficit, and you can burn many more calories with low intensity every day rather than high intensity with rest days. This gets more nuanced with goals from other points in the progress timeline. Another point I'd like to make related to the above, and the podcast. A lot of top-level coaches really suck at training athletes. Even at the olympic level, coaching has a lot more to do with organization, motivation, maybe manipulation, and ultimately selection. That's a separate skill set, and you can make a pretty good team by pushing a large group to their limits until only the best remain. It's not the same thing as getting the best performance out of each individual, which is why it sounds so crazy from her perspective. A top athlete is likely to seek out an independent performance coach after making it through the olympic program filter, and I think this has a lot to do with why the same people keep coming back. They're past the filter and training for performance, not constantly being tested. I think the worst sport for bad coaching might be swimming: endless long sets all season with distance and sprinters mixed into the same lane and then a month of restful performance training at the end. Jason Lezak famously swam the fastest 100 leg in history well past his prime by training himself alone mostly with 50s on a minute. Okay that's far enough off the topic. Peace.
- cafard 2y agoMaybe 30 years ago, the National Academy of Sciences produced a book, funded by the DOD on exercise-induced anorexia and accompanying lean mass loss among military personnel in very demanding training--ranger school etc. I glanced at the first few pages, of which I remember basically, "yes, it's a problem">