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I think the biggest thing with this is reliability. I've got a half a dozen cellular radios lying around my house (cellphones) of which exactly one is functiona

I think the biggest thing with this is reliability. I've got a half a dozen cellular radios lying around my house (cellphones) of which exactly one is functional. Even if I paid for a new sim for the others... I'm not sure some of them could work at all with current transmitters, even if the hardware was functional. I've got an AM/FM radio that's 20-30 years old and it still works. At some point it would be nice if we could get back to vendor-agnostic wireless protocols that aren't obsolete every 10 years. Until we have such a thing deprecating AM seems premature.

doug_durham 2y ago
Cellular protocols are vendor agnostic. It's just that we keep finding ways to eek more bandwidth out of the spectrum. No one wants 3G or the original CDMA.
- mindslight 2y ago
  Personally I was content with 3G, especially 3G voice that was part of 4G LTE until the US carriers were allowed to kill it and force everyone into churning devices. I would likely still be using my S7 if not for that.
  - beretguy 2y ago
    I would still be using some Nokia.
  - alexdbird 2y ago
    3G was fine, without all these pesky people using it. It seems we need the extra capacity provided by newer Gs.
    - worewood 2y ago
      Sometimes I find myself turning 4G off because the 3G reception is better in crowded or remote areas.
    - mindslight 2y ago
      The number of users hasn't really gone up since 3G. By that point in the US basically everyone had a cell phone. So your point is more like increased data usage across the board. And sure that's a decent argument why carriers want to deprecate old protocols, although I think carriers being allowed to deprecate what was effectively a single generation old was a travesty. I'm just saying as far as service level and amount of data on plans, I personally was content with 3G levels. There's so much advertising pushing us into churning for technolust incrementalist spec-chasing, that I find completely uncompelling as what really defines my devices' capabilities is software freedom.
- no_wizard 2y ago
  Indeed the technology itself is, but the spectrum is not, it’s allocated by FCC auction and effectively controlled by the cellar companies. This is what I think may be the source of confusion, since you can’t say, build your own cellar device and tap into Verizon’s network without their authorization, like you can with AM or FM radio waves
  - jameshart 2y ago
    frequency allocation has nothing to do with modulation. Just because AM is easy to transmit or receive in any band, doesn’t mean you’re allowed to.
    - hilbert42 2y ago
      Right. Spectrum management is a complex subject (I've actually sat on several preparatory committees to make submissions to WARC (aka WRC). The matter reminds me a bit of copyright law about 40 years ago, back then the GP was hardly aware that copyright existed, nowadays it may not be much the wiser but it at least knows one can't just copy works without permission. EMI and spectrum management is in a similar position to copyright of 40 years ago. It will be a long slow process to bring the GP up to speed. First we have to begin training electrical engineers in the subject as at present only a handful actually understand the subject at any depth.
    - no_wizard 2y ago
      Yes, my point exactly, I lacked the requisite vocabulary to express it more concisely
ryanianian 2y ago
TFA mentions AM causing interference in EVs. More accurately, it's hard to isolate an AM antenna from a transformer system. AM reception in EVs is a feat of engineering. FM and others still require care but are comparatively easier. AM is unique in its propagation. It can travel very far very easily and even bounce off the ionosphere in "shortwave" AM situations. It's hard to imagine any form of broadcast radio beating AM at its own game here. Satellite radio could work, but satellites are a lot more expensive than a radio tower.
- gnicholas 2y ago
  Would it suffice to require either AM or satellite radio? We never buy satellite radio subscriptions, but our decade old car has an antenna, and I assume many newer cars do as well. As long as people know how to use them to tune into emergency channels (I don’t!), it might suffice for EVs.
  - thsksbd 2y ago
    Satellites are nowhere near as reliable as AM. Tree cover will block your satellite signal
    - criddell 2y ago
      But if the radio is in a car, it can be moved. I wonder if the car manufacturers could get around this by offering free handheld AM radios? In bulk, they probably cost less than $10.
      - thsksbd 2y ago
        And then there are clouds.
- gugagore 2y ago
  Maybe someone can explain why the modulation scheme matters, instead of the frequency range. AM less sensitive to phase noise? Or is it that AM radio typically means some frequency range?
giantrobot 2y ago
> At some point it would be nice if we could get back to vendor-agnostic wireless protocols Cellular, WiFi, and Bluetooth are vendor-agnostic. The issue is there's finite radio bandwidth and because the radios are vendor-agnostic they all need to built to a specification. Interop between cellular basebands made by a variety of players and base stations made by yet more players is already a minor technological miracle. Old AMPS phones want to use the bands carriers moved to 4G/5G service. There's no affordance for backwards compatibility because the old technology was just shittier. The bandwidth of a single AMPS phone can now carry many dozens of 5G connections and provide them with full service.
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  Like with the Internet being "decentralized", the lower-level parts may be vendor-agnostic, but they're not the parts that matter. Being able to build devices talking over cellular protocols does little for me if I'm not able to actually use them with a cellular network.
  - giantrobot 2y ago
    The world where every rando builds a cellular radio and decides emission limits, guard bands, and filtering just aren't interesting to them is a world where cellular doesn't work for anyone. If you want to goof with electronics in your garage the only person you're going to affect is yourself. When you start messing with radios, the emissions are invisible. You don't necessarily realize you just raised the noise floor for your whole neighborhood. It's pretty easy to build a device that barely functions as a radio but works really well as a jamming device.
    - TeMPOraL 2y ago
      Sure, and I by no means advocate for every rando to be able to freely build RF devices. My point was that protocols being open means little, when to actually use them you have to negotiate with large commercial entities that actively don't want to deal with you. It's a different pair of shoes than just dealing with (your national equivalent of) FCC and the local community of practice, as is the case e.g. for HAM. The analogy to the Internet I'm making is this: yes, the protocols are open and you can theoretically participate with "the Internet" using even a potato, as long as it speaks TCP/IP. This is the decentralized, packet-switching, "routing around censorship" part. It's also not the part that matters - the actual Internet is the application layer, and it's in large part centralized in entities like Meta, Google (and on a different dimension, Cloudflare). Packet switching won't help your Facebook page to "route around censorship" when Meta itself is the censor.
ProllyInfamous 2y ago
The thing I hate most about my Camry Hybrid is that it doesn't have a CD player... but if I wanted one [just like an AM radio] I'd pay to have a new radio unit installed. For now I'm enjoying the free satelite radio trial.
- rpcope1 2y ago
  One of the most aggravating and rather stupid things in my opinion about newer cars, is if you wanted to install a different or new head unit, it has gotten way more complex. I really miss just being able to buy a regular single-DIN or double-DIN radio and with a small amount of work being able to install it. I wish to god manufacturers would stop trying to integrate everything into the console, and have a standard head unit format, so that I could have more easy choice as to what goes in there, especially as the car ages.
  - dorfsmay 2y ago
    Did it not become more complex to prevent theft?
    - grugagag 2y ago
      Thats only part of the story
    - 15155 2y ago
      I think the more generous, less arguable, and less conspiratorial reason would be that climate control and other car-related features have been integrated into one UI resulting in a net-better experience and quality finish.
      - warble 2y ago
        I feel like it's a worse UI and worse experience. By leaps and bounds. Less reliable, harder to operate, over reliant on terrible software and underpowered hardware. Some of the android auto and apple car play stuff is acceptable, but not great.
api 2y ago
AM radios from 100 years ago will work.

doug_durham 2y ago

Cellular protocols are vendor agnostic. It's just that we keep finding ways to eek more bandwidth out of the spectrum. No one wants 3G or the original CDMA.

mindslight 2y ago
Personally I was content with 3G, especially 3G voice that was part of 4G LTE until the US carriers were allowed to kill it and force everyone into churning devices. I would likely still be using my S7 if not for that.
- beretguy 2y ago
  I would still be using some Nokia.
- alexdbird 2y ago
  3G was fine, without all these pesky people using it. It seems we need the extra capacity provided by newer Gs.
  - worewood 2y ago
    Sometimes I find myself turning 4G off because the 3G reception is better in crowded or remote areas.
  - mindslight 2y ago
    The number of users hasn't really gone up since 3G. By that point in the US basically everyone had a cell phone. So your point is more like increased data usage across the board. And sure that's a decent argument why carriers want to deprecate old protocols, although I think carriers being allowed to deprecate what was effectively a single generation old was a travesty. I'm just saying as far as service level and amount of data on plans, I personally was content with 3G levels. There's so much advertising pushing us into churning for technolust incrementalist spec-chasing, that I find completely uncompelling as what really defines my devices' capabilities is software freedom.
no_wizard 2y ago
Indeed the technology itself is, but the spectrum is not, it’s allocated by FCC auction and effectively controlled by the cellar companies. This is what I think may be the source of confusion, since you can’t say, build your own cellar device and tap into Verizon’s network without their authorization, like you can with AM or FM radio waves
- jameshart 2y ago
  frequency allocation has nothing to do with modulation. Just because AM is easy to transmit or receive in any band, doesn’t mean you’re allowed to.
  - hilbert42 2y ago
    Right. Spectrum management is a complex subject (I've actually sat on several preparatory committees to make submissions to WARC (aka WRC). The matter reminds me a bit of copyright law about 40 years ago, back then the GP was hardly aware that copyright existed, nowadays it may not be much the wiser but it at least knows one can't just copy works without permission. EMI and spectrum management is in a similar position to copyright of 40 years ago. It will be a long slow process to bring the GP up to speed. First we have to begin training electrical engineers in the subject as at present only a handful actually understand the subject at any depth.
  - no_wizard 2y ago
    Yes, my point exactly, I lacked the requisite vocabulary to express it more concisely

ryanianian 2y ago

TFA mentions AM causing interference in EVs. More accurately, it's hard to isolate an AM antenna from a transformer system. AM reception in EVs is a feat of engineering. FM and others still require care but are comparatively easier. AM is unique in its propagation. It can travel very far very easily and even bounce off the ionosphere in "shortwave" AM situations. It's hard to imagine any form of broadcast radio beating AM at its own game here. Satellite radio could work, but satellites are a lot more expensive than a radio tower.

gnicholas 2y ago
Would it suffice to require either AM or satellite radio? We never buy satellite radio subscriptions, but our decade old car has an antenna, and I assume many newer cars do as well. As long as people know how to use them to tune into emergency channels (I don’t!), it might suffice for EVs.
- thsksbd 2y ago
  Satellites are nowhere near as reliable as AM. Tree cover will block your satellite signal
  - criddell 2y ago
    But if the radio is in a car, it can be moved. I wonder if the car manufacturers could get around this by offering free handheld AM radios? In bulk, they probably cost less than $10.
    - thsksbd 2y ago
      And then there are clouds.
gugagore 2y ago
Maybe someone can explain why the modulation scheme matters, instead of the frequency range. AM less sensitive to phase noise? Or is it that AM radio typically means some frequency range?

giantrobot 2y ago

> At some point it would be nice if we could get back to vendor-agnostic wireless protocols Cellular, WiFi, and Bluetooth are vendor-agnostic. The issue is there's finite radio bandwidth and because the radios are vendor-agnostic they all need to built to a specification. Interop between cellular basebands made by a variety of players and base stations made by yet more players is already a minor technological miracle. Old AMPS phones want to use the bands carriers moved to 4G/5G service. There's no affordance for backwards compatibility because the old technology was just shittier. The bandwidth of a single AMPS phone can now carry many dozens of 5G connections and provide them with full service.

TeMPOraL 2y ago
Like with the Internet being "decentralized", the lower-level parts may be vendor-agnostic, but they're not the parts that matter. Being able to build devices talking over cellular protocols does little for me if I'm not able to actually use them with a cellular network.
- giantrobot 2y ago
  The world where every rando builds a cellular radio and decides emission limits, guard bands, and filtering just aren't interesting to them is a world where cellular doesn't work for anyone. If you want to goof with electronics in your garage the only person you're going to affect is yourself. When you start messing with radios, the emissions are invisible. You don't necessarily realize you just raised the noise floor for your whole neighborhood. It's pretty easy to build a device that barely functions as a radio but works really well as a jamming device.
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    Sure, and I by no means advocate for every rando to be able to freely build RF devices. My point was that protocols being open means little, when to actually use them you have to negotiate with large commercial entities that actively don't want to deal with you. It's a different pair of shoes than just dealing with (your national equivalent of) FCC and the local community of practice, as is the case e.g. for HAM. The analogy to the Internet I'm making is this: yes, the protocols are open and you can theoretically participate with "the Internet" using even a potato, as long as it speaks TCP/IP. This is the decentralized, packet-switching, "routing around censorship" part. It's also not the part that matters - the actual Internet is the application layer, and it's in large part centralized in entities like Meta, Google (and on a different dimension, Cloudflare). Packet switching won't help your Facebook page to "route around censorship" when Meta itself is the censor.

ProllyInfamous 2y ago

The thing I hate most about my Camry Hybrid is that it doesn't have a CD player... but if I wanted one [just like an AM radio] I'd pay to have a new radio unit installed. For now I'm enjoying the free satelite radio trial.

rpcope1 2y ago
One of the most aggravating and rather stupid things in my opinion about newer cars, is if you wanted to install a different or new head unit, it has gotten way more complex. I really miss just being able to buy a regular single-DIN or double-DIN radio and with a small amount of work being able to install it. I wish to god manufacturers would stop trying to integrate everything into the console, and have a standard head unit format, so that I could have more easy choice as to what goes in there, especially as the car ages.
- dorfsmay 2y ago
  Did it not become more complex to prevent theft?
  - grugagag 2y ago
    Thats only part of the story
  - 15155 2y ago
    I think the more generous, less arguable, and less conspiratorial reason would be that climate control and other car-related features have been integrated into one UI resulting in a net-better experience and quality finish.
    - warble 2y ago
      I feel like it's a worse UI and worse experience. By leaps and bounds. Less reliable, harder to operate, over reliant on terrible software and underpowered hardware. Some of the android auto and apple car play stuff is acceptable, but not great.

api 2y ago

AM radios from 100 years ago will work.