7 ms·

After 16 years, Ecobee is ceasing support for original smart thermostat

50 points by derbOac 2y ago

pbronez 2y ago
So what’s the best option for a smart thermostat that works entirely locally with home assistant?
- spdustin 2y ago
  An ESP32/ESP8266 with ESPHome's built-in Thermostat controller [0] and a relay (or solid state switch) board with optoisolation. There are a few other options that are pre-made, like this [1], or that offer guidelines for DIYing it [2] [0]: https://esphome.io/components/climate/thermostat.html https://esphome.io/components/climate/thermostat.html [1]: https://joestump.github.io/hass/esp8266-thermostat/ https://joestump.github.io/hass/esp8266-thermostat/ [2]: https://youtu.be/WgDV-PlD3AE?si=74iQeFaVBgZcmTVp https://youtu.be/WgDV-PlD3AE?si=74iQeFaVBgZcmTVp
  - ssl-3 2y ago
    The relay doesn't really need to be opto-isolated. It can be, and optos are cheap enough that many common pre-assembled relay boards include them, but it's not really necessary. If a person has enough stuff in front of them to make a relay reliably click on and off, then they also have enough stuff in front of them to make a conventional forced air furnace turn on and off just as a thermostat would.
    - spdustin 2y ago
      I wouldn’t want the load current flowing through anything it shouldn’t. Maybe I’m too cautious, but it’s a binary rule that I’ve always followed when the load current is enough to cause harm to anything, or release the magic smoke inside the controller.
      - wwmiller3 2y ago
        To your point, I have had the high voltage side of a high-efficiency furnace (e.g., inducer fan) fail and take out the entire string of low voltage components (thermostat, humidifier controls) connected to the furnace through an unfortunate coupling on the primary control board.
      - ssl-3 2y ago
        I wouldn't want that, either. But a relay is already an isolator: There's no path between the switched contacts and the coil of the solenoid that switches those contacts. The coil doesn't know or care how much current or voltage the contacts are switching: It's just a coil that moves a little bit of metal using electromagnetism. And, sure: It takes more power to drive a relay's coil than it does to drive an LED inside of an optocoupler, but at some point that coil still needs to be driven by something that can accomplish that small amount of work. Adding an optocoupler just seems like adding extra parts to a circuit that would be simpler without. KISS?
- FireBeyond 2y ago
  Ironically the Ecobee works for most of this. I had to set it up online but now it’s firewalled off and communicates locally with HomeKit. Not exactly what you seek I understand but the Ecobee does better locally than my Nest did.
  - aitchnyu 2y ago
    How's it firewalled off and can the technique be used for other types of devices?
- piperswe 2y ago
  A Zigbee or Z-Wave thermostat will do nicely. No internet connection at all, just a connection to a Zigbee/Z-Wave dongle on your Home Assistant server
- blessedwhiskers 2y ago
  I had a Honeywell smart thermostat that worked entirely locally with Apple's HomeKit. I haven't used Home Assistant but a cursory Google search implies this would work. My recollection is it was a Honeywell T5. Notably it did sometimes fall off the WiFi for brief periods of time, so I couldn't give the product itself a ringing endorsement. I usually specifically look for smart devices like this because I dislike the idea of them phoning home for "analytics" or "to enhance my marketing experience" and just firewall them off. I'm not sure if it's explicitly required, but I've yet to encounter a HomeKit device that didn't work when prohibited from talking to anything outside the LAN.
xyst 2y ago
Should be illegal. Instead of offering coupon codes, should be open sourced or unlocked. No reason to send this to the local landfill if it’s primary job is still functional.
- pcdoodle 2y ago
  A coupon code is very generous after 16 years. Also it still works as a dumb thermostat.
  - ryandrake 2y ago
    “Ceasing support” should not mean the product fundamentally changes. If I buy a smart thermostat, I expect it to be and remain a smart thermostat. It should work exactly as the day it was purchased, forever. A bait and switch is still a bait and switch even if the switch happens 16 years later. This should absolutely 100% be illegal. I don’t want to hear boo hoo whiny excuses about how hard it is to keep a server running. If you as a company can’t do it, you have no business selling a connected device that depends on a server.
    - pyuser583 2y ago
      A 16 year lifespan is pretty good for “smart” electronics. What do you think an IOT devices guaranteed lifespan should be?
      - Nullabillity 2y ago
        Physical lifetime of the product would be a start. Don't like it? Don't build cloud-bound landfill fodder.
      - rightbyte 2y ago
        16 years are a pitty. My termostats have been operating for 39 years. I have changed one that got scewed off by a bed move.
        2y ago
hyperman1 2y ago
This HN discussion shows a huge range of valid opinions. On one end: A company can't spend forever supporting a product. It's economical madness. On the other end: We paid for it, we should be able to use it until it wears out. The company locked everyone else out, so they did this to themselves. I think we reached the limits of current ownership theory. We have things that are partly a buyable object and partly service, and current law doesn't deal well with that. Some possible changes I'd like to see: 1) The terms should become explicit. If continues company support is needed, the company should make that clear and specify a minimal end date. 2) Consumer rights should be enforced for services. No kicking consumers out whenever a company feels like it. 3) When a company abandons a product(or ceases existing), the locks on it should be removed so someone else can support it. 4) Things should be safe by default. A hackable internet connected product has a manufacturing defect and should be fixed or recalled for the (published) product lifetime.
- vouaobrasil 2y ago
  I think your ideas are good, and not because of smart thermostats, but because of smartphones. The hardware on older ones still work, so they should have a way of still being functional. There should be enough information released on them so that the latest versions of Android can still be supported.
- Dowwie 2y ago
  I just went through the exercise of addressing item 4 for an IOT product. The odds that an organization enables security features is influenced by a multitude of factors. More to come on this.
- rightbyte 2y ago
  > On one end: A company can't spend forever supporting a product. It's economical madness. An electronic thermostat would probably last about 30 years maybe. That is hardly forever.
- petermcneeley 2y ago
  >A company can't spend forever supporting a product. It's economical madness. Do you know what a trust is? or an annuity? Yes you can with a fixed amount of money provide the funds to support a product forever.

50 points by derbOac 2y ago

pbronez 2y ago

So what’s the best option for a smart thermostat that works entirely locally with home assistant?

spdustin 2y ago
An ESP32/ESP8266 with ESPHome's built-in Thermostat controller [0] and a relay (or solid state switch) board with optoisolation. There are a few other options that are pre-made, like this [1], or that offer guidelines for DIYing it [2] [0]: https://esphome.io/components/climate/thermostat.html https://esphome.io/components/climate/thermostat.html [1]: https://joestump.github.io/hass/esp8266-thermostat/ https://joestump.github.io/hass/esp8266-thermostat/ [2]: https://youtu.be/WgDV-PlD3AE?si=74iQeFaVBgZcmTVp https://youtu.be/WgDV-PlD3AE?si=74iQeFaVBgZcmTVp
- ssl-3 2y ago
  The relay doesn't really need to be opto-isolated. It can be, and optos are cheap enough that many common pre-assembled relay boards include them, but it's not really necessary. If a person has enough stuff in front of them to make a relay reliably click on and off, then they also have enough stuff in front of them to make a conventional forced air furnace turn on and off just as a thermostat would.
  - spdustin 2y ago
    I wouldn’t want the load current flowing through anything it shouldn’t. Maybe I’m too cautious, but it’s a binary rule that I’ve always followed when the load current is enough to cause harm to anything, or release the magic smoke inside the controller.
    - wwmiller3 2y ago
      To your point, I have had the high voltage side of a high-efficiency furnace (e.g., inducer fan) fail and take out the entire string of low voltage components (thermostat, humidifier controls) connected to the furnace through an unfortunate coupling on the primary control board.
    - ssl-3 2y ago
      I wouldn't want that, either. But a relay is already an isolator: There's no path between the switched contacts and the coil of the solenoid that switches those contacts. The coil doesn't know or care how much current or voltage the contacts are switching: It's just a coil that moves a little bit of metal using electromagnetism. And, sure: It takes more power to drive a relay's coil than it does to drive an LED inside of an optocoupler, but at some point that coil still needs to be driven by something that can accomplish that small amount of work. Adding an optocoupler just seems like adding extra parts to a circuit that would be simpler without. KISS?
FireBeyond 2y ago
Ironically the Ecobee works for most of this. I had to set it up online but now it’s firewalled off and communicates locally with HomeKit. Not exactly what you seek I understand but the Ecobee does better locally than my Nest did.
- aitchnyu 2y ago
  How's it firewalled off and can the technique be used for other types of devices?
piperswe 2y ago
A Zigbee or Z-Wave thermostat will do nicely. No internet connection at all, just a connection to a Zigbee/Z-Wave dongle on your Home Assistant server
blessedwhiskers 2y ago
I had a Honeywell smart thermostat that worked entirely locally with Apple's HomeKit. I haven't used Home Assistant but a cursory Google search implies this would work. My recollection is it was a Honeywell T5. Notably it did sometimes fall off the WiFi for brief periods of time, so I couldn't give the product itself a ringing endorsement. I usually specifically look for smart devices like this because I dislike the idea of them phoning home for "analytics" or "to enhance my marketing experience" and just firewall them off. I'm not sure if it's explicitly required, but I've yet to encounter a HomeKit device that didn't work when prohibited from talking to anything outside the LAN.

xyst 2y ago

Should be illegal. Instead of offering coupon codes, should be open sourced or unlocked. No reason to send this to the local landfill if it’s primary job is still functional.

pcdoodle 2y ago
A coupon code is very generous after 16 years. Also it still works as a dumb thermostat.
- ryandrake 2y ago
  “Ceasing support” should not mean the product fundamentally changes. If I buy a smart thermostat, I expect it to be and remain a smart thermostat. It should work exactly as the day it was purchased, forever. A bait and switch is still a bait and switch even if the switch happens 16 years later. This should absolutely 100% be illegal. I don’t want to hear boo hoo whiny excuses about how hard it is to keep a server running. If you as a company can’t do it, you have no business selling a connected device that depends on a server.
  - pyuser583 2y ago
    A 16 year lifespan is pretty good for “smart” electronics. What do you think an IOT devices guaranteed lifespan should be?
    - Nullabillity 2y ago
      Physical lifetime of the product would be a start. Don't like it? Don't build cloud-bound landfill fodder.
    - rightbyte 2y ago
      16 years are a pitty. My termostats have been operating for 39 years. I have changed one that got scewed off by a bed move.
      - 2y ago

hyperman1 2y ago

This HN discussion shows a huge range of valid opinions. On one end: A company can't spend forever supporting a product. It's economical madness. On the other end: We paid for it, we should be able to use it until it wears out. The company locked everyone else out, so they did this to themselves. I think we reached the limits of current ownership theory. We have things that are partly a buyable object and partly service, and current law doesn't deal well with that. Some possible changes I'd like to see: 1) The terms should become explicit. If continues company support is needed, the company should make that clear and specify a minimal end date. 2) Consumer rights should be enforced for services. No kicking consumers out whenever a company feels like it. 3) When a company abandons a product(or ceases existing), the locks on it should be removed so someone else can support it. 4) Things should be safe by default. A hackable internet connected product has a manufacturing defect and should be fixed or recalled for the (published) product lifetime.

vouaobrasil 2y ago
I think your ideas are good, and not because of smart thermostats, but because of smartphones. The hardware on older ones still work, so they should have a way of still being functional. There should be enough information released on them so that the latest versions of Android can still be supported.
Dowwie 2y ago
I just went through the exercise of addressing item 4 for an IOT product. The odds that an organization enables security features is influenced by a multitude of factors. More to come on this.
rightbyte 2y ago
> On one end: A company can't spend forever supporting a product. It's economical madness. An electronic thermostat would probably last about 30 years maybe. That is hardly forever.
petermcneeley 2y ago
>A company can't spend forever supporting a product. It's economical madness. Do you know what a trust is? or an annuity? Yes you can with a fixed amount of money provide the funds to support a product forever.