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"Mostly from Australia and Chile" seems like the opposite of baggage, that sounds like about the best you could hope for in a global commodity, so many of which

"Mostly from Australia and Chile" seems like the opposite of baggage, that sounds like about the best you could hope for in a global commodity, so many of which come from unstable regions, conflict regions, or outright adversaries. Yes, I know that China does most of the refining/assembly, but that has little to do with the chemistry. "Building new Na-ion capacity outside China" is probably even harder than "building new li-ion capacity outside China."

quitit 2y ago
Let's unpack it then. You've stated: >"Mostly from Australia and Chile" seems like the opposite of baggage, that sounds like about the best you could hope for in a global commodity, so many of which come from unstable regions, conflict regions, or outright adversaries. So let's break it down with some facts (all easily searchable.) (1) The graph states that Australia is the largest producer of Lithium, and states that of their exports, 90% goes to China. (2) Australia exports the majority of its lithium. (https://www.abs.gov.au/articles/insights-australian-exports-lithium https://www.abs.gov.au/articles/insights-australian-exports-...) (3) Lithium ion batteries are currently reliant on Cobalt for their cathode. (4) The DRC (Congo) is the largest producer of Cobalt, then Indonesia, then Russia. >"seems like the opposite of baggage ... unstable regions, conflict regions, or outright adversaries" From (1) and (2) we can see that the world is dependent on China for the only viable battery option for a range of modern applications. Thus the claim that this isn't baggage is not supported. Secondly China is also considered an adversary of the USA, by the USA. Thirdly the claim that this does not involve unstable/conflict regions is also not supported due to (3) and (4). Part two: you've also stated the below: >"Building new Na-ion capacity outside China" is probably even harder than "building new li-ion capacity outside China." While this is a baseless comment, let's look at it anyway: (5) The article is specifically about the commencement of mass production of Na batteries in the USA. That already refutes the core premise of your statement, but let's follow it further. (6) The article notes that unlike Li batteries, the materials are trivially sourced domestically. That's an important difference from Li batteries, and significantly boosts the viability of competitive production in the USA (and other countries outside of China).
- pfdietz 2y ago
  > (3) Lithium ion batteries are currently reliant on Cobalt for their cathode. Some kinds are. Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) batteries are not.
  - sunshinesnacks 2y ago
    Glad you mentioned this. Any conversation about batteries and minerals that mentions cobalt but not LFP is severely lacking.
  - jillesvangurp 2y ago
    Yep, that's predicted to be about 40% of the battery market by the end of this year. And while what's happening in Africa with respect to conflict mining is nasty, it's worth pointing out that that this is a solvable social issue. A lot of battery and car companies are under a lot of pressure to not have conflict minerals in their supply chains. Also, cobalt and lithium mining are a drop in the ocean compared to other forms of mining. Is it more sad when children are used to mine cobalt than when they are mining coal, iron, or copper? The reason nobody really talks about that is not that it's not happening but because the people raising issues about cobalt mining are being highly selective. People dying deep underground in coal mines is a regular thing that gets reported in the news occasionally. Some of those people are minors. Mining simply is unhealthy and dangerous. And it mostly happens in places where there is not a whole lot of attention to workplace safety; or indeed the age of the workers. Never mind that conflict cobalt is also used in the oil and petrochemical industry. Which of course also uses oil at a ginormous scale. And never mind that nobody cares where that oil comes from or how it is produced. Or the ecological damage done to the environment producing and transporting it. E.g. Nigerian oil has had its fair share of social and ecological issues over the years. I remember there were some protests but Shell's market share never really suffered a lot. Cobalt in batteries is fine if it is sourced responsibly. And it can be recycled when the battery eventually reaches its end of life.
- Ygg2 2y ago
  China doesn't have largest Li deposits. It's a hub area. Perhaps THE hub area for industrial goods. You didn't really refute GP's point.
jajko 2y ago
Unless you are from those places. Ie few years ago we visited Salar de Uyuni, biggest salt flat in the world, properly amazing place. And one of the biggest deposits of lithium. Any form of mining (and you know in Bolivia it won't be eco-friendly unless miracle happens) will destroy at least some aspects of it. And there are massive plans. Now sure not that many species of animals/plants will be affected compared to say some rainforest location, but it still pains me to even imagine it. If it will bring good jobs to the locals then at least some good locally will be achieved, but thats not always the case.
- dredds 2y ago
  No animals/plants live on arid salt-flats. They pile the lithium salts and let it dry before carting it away. What changes if they also use the sodium?
  - ForOldHack 2y ago
    "Lithium Mining Is Leaving Chile’s Indigenous Communities High and Dry (Literally) As the metal fuels the clean tech boom, companies race to mine the Atacama Region. At stake: fragile ecosystems, scarce water resources, and ancient ways of life." https://www.nrdc.org/stories/lithium-mining-leaving-chiles-indigenous-communities-high-and-dry-literally https://www.nrdc.org/stories/lithium-mining-leaving-chiles-i...
    - ggreer 2y ago
      If you do industry in a place teeming with life, people try to stop it because you're harming lots of living things. If you do industry in a desolate place, people try to stop it because you're harming the few rare species that can survive there. The more important issue to consider is: What is the global effect? In this case lithium mining means cheaper electric vehicles, which reduces demand for petroleum. Petroleum extraction & combustion is far more harmful to the environment, so this is a net win.
adriand 2y ago
Cobalt, however, which is used in common lithium battery chemistries, is mostly sourced from the DRC (Congo), much of it under terrible conditions: forced labour, child labour, and rampant environmental degradation. The book Cobalt Red: How the Blood of the Congo Powers Our Lives [1] is a real eye-opener if you haven’t read it. Fascinating and deeply disturbing. 1: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/60784614-cobalt-red https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/60784614-cobalt-red
- ggreer 2y ago
  Since 2022, the majority of EVs manufactured have no cobalt in their batteries. Most manufacturers use lithium iron phosphate chemistry (LFP), which is cheaper and safer than NMC or NCA. The cobalt-based chemistries are only used in higher performance vehicles, where LFP's lower energy density becomes a problem.
  - seltzered_ 2y ago
    Not yet. At least in the US the only LFP EVs available right now (Spring 2024) are certain models of the Ford Mustang Mach-E and the standard range Tesla Model 3. This may change over the coming months.
    - ggreer 2y ago
      I'm talking about fraction of vehicles, not fraction of different models available.
  - tooltalk 2y ago
    >> Since 2022, the majority of EVs manufactured have no cobalt in their batteries. << This is not true at all. Most EV OEMs don't use LFP: even in China, LFP's market share just passed 50% in 2022. Outside China, it's overwhelmingly NCM/A. LFP is a low-end battery most suitable for small/compact EVs with "urban" range.
    - ggreer 2y ago

quitit 2y ago

Let's unpack it then. You've stated: >"Mostly from Australia and Chile" seems like the opposite of baggage, that sounds like about the best you could hope for in a global commodity, so many of which come from unstable regions, conflict regions, or outright adversaries. So let's break it down with some facts (all easily searchable.) (1) The graph states that Australia is the largest producer of Lithium, and states that of their exports, 90% goes to China. (2) Australia exports the majority of its lithium. (https://www.abs.gov.au/articles/insights-australian-exports-lithium https://www.abs.gov.au/articles/insights-australian-exports-...) (3) Lithium ion batteries are currently reliant on Cobalt for their cathode. (4) The DRC (Congo) is the largest producer of Cobalt, then Indonesia, then Russia. >"seems like the opposite of baggage ... unstable regions, conflict regions, or outright adversaries" From (1) and (2) we can see that the world is dependent on China for the only viable battery option for a range of modern applications. Thus the claim that this isn't baggage is not supported. Secondly China is also considered an adversary of the USA, by the USA. Thirdly the claim that this does not involve unstable/conflict regions is also not supported due to (3) and (4). Part two: you've also stated the below: >"Building new Na-ion capacity outside China" is probably even harder than "building new li-ion capacity outside China." While this is a baseless comment, let's look at it anyway: (5) The article is specifically about the commencement of mass production of Na batteries in the USA. That already refutes the core premise of your statement, but let's follow it further. (6) The article notes that unlike Li batteries, the materials are trivially sourced domestically. That's an important difference from Li batteries, and significantly boosts the viability of competitive production in the USA (and other countries outside of China).

pfdietz 2y ago
> (3) Lithium ion batteries are currently reliant on Cobalt for their cathode. Some kinds are. Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) batteries are not.
- sunshinesnacks 2y ago
  Glad you mentioned this. Any conversation about batteries and minerals that mentions cobalt but not LFP is severely lacking.
- jillesvangurp 2y ago
  Yep, that's predicted to be about 40% of the battery market by the end of this year. And while what's happening in Africa with respect to conflict mining is nasty, it's worth pointing out that that this is a solvable social issue. A lot of battery and car companies are under a lot of pressure to not have conflict minerals in their supply chains. Also, cobalt and lithium mining are a drop in the ocean compared to other forms of mining. Is it more sad when children are used to mine cobalt than when they are mining coal, iron, or copper? The reason nobody really talks about that is not that it's not happening but because the people raising issues about cobalt mining are being highly selective. People dying deep underground in coal mines is a regular thing that gets reported in the news occasionally. Some of those people are minors. Mining simply is unhealthy and dangerous. And it mostly happens in places where there is not a whole lot of attention to workplace safety; or indeed the age of the workers. Never mind that conflict cobalt is also used in the oil and petrochemical industry. Which of course also uses oil at a ginormous scale. And never mind that nobody cares where that oil comes from or how it is produced. Or the ecological damage done to the environment producing and transporting it. E.g. Nigerian oil has had its fair share of social and ecological issues over the years. I remember there were some protests but Shell's market share never really suffered a lot. Cobalt in batteries is fine if it is sourced responsibly. And it can be recycled when the battery eventually reaches its end of life.
Ygg2 2y ago
China doesn't have largest Li deposits. It's a hub area. Perhaps THE hub area for industrial goods. You didn't really refute GP's point.

jajko 2y ago

Unless you are from those places. Ie few years ago we visited Salar de Uyuni, biggest salt flat in the world, properly amazing place. And one of the biggest deposits of lithium. Any form of mining (and you know in Bolivia it won't be eco-friendly unless miracle happens) will destroy at least some aspects of it. And there are massive plans. Now sure not that many species of animals/plants will be affected compared to say some rainforest location, but it still pains me to even imagine it. If it will bring good jobs to the locals then at least some good locally will be achieved, but thats not always the case.

dredds 2y ago
No animals/plants live on arid salt-flats. They pile the lithium salts and let it dry before carting it away. What changes if they also use the sodium?
- ForOldHack 2y ago
  "Lithium Mining Is Leaving Chile’s Indigenous Communities High and Dry (Literally) As the metal fuels the clean tech boom, companies race to mine the Atacama Region. At stake: fragile ecosystems, scarce water resources, and ancient ways of life." https://www.nrdc.org/stories/lithium-mining-leaving-chiles-indigenous-communities-high-and-dry-literally https://www.nrdc.org/stories/lithium-mining-leaving-chiles-i...
  - ggreer 2y ago
    If you do industry in a place teeming with life, people try to stop it because you're harming lots of living things. If you do industry in a desolate place, people try to stop it because you're harming the few rare species that can survive there. The more important issue to consider is: What is the global effect? In this case lithium mining means cheaper electric vehicles, which reduces demand for petroleum. Petroleum extraction & combustion is far more harmful to the environment, so this is a net win.

adriand 2y ago

Cobalt, however, which is used in common lithium battery chemistries, is mostly sourced from the DRC (Congo), much of it under terrible conditions: forced labour, child labour, and rampant environmental degradation. The book Cobalt Red: How the Blood of the Congo Powers Our Lives [1] is a real eye-opener if you haven’t read it. Fascinating and deeply disturbing. 1: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/60784614-cobalt-red https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/60784614-cobalt-red

ggreer 2y ago
Since 2022, the majority of EVs manufactured have no cobalt in their batteries. Most manufacturers use lithium iron phosphate chemistry (LFP), which is cheaper and safer than NMC or NCA. The cobalt-based chemistries are only used in higher performance vehicles, where LFP's lower energy density becomes a problem.
- seltzered_ 2y ago
  Not yet. At least in the US the only LFP EVs available right now (Spring 2024) are certain models of the Ford Mustang Mach-E and the standard range Tesla Model 3. This may change over the coming months.
  - ggreer 2y ago
    I'm talking about fraction of vehicles, not fraction of different models available.
- tooltalk 2y ago
  >> Since 2022, the majority of EVs manufactured have no cobalt in their batteries. << This is not true at all. Most EV OEMs don't use LFP: even in China, LFP's market share just passed 50% in 2022. Outside China, it's overwhelmingly NCM/A. LFP is a low-end battery most suitable for small/compact EVs with "urban" range.
  - ggreer 2y ago