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We’re undergoing a Cambrian explosion of battery chemistries at the moment. Other startups, such as From Energy is scaling up production of Iron Air batteries i

We’re undergoing a Cambrian explosion of battery chemistries at the moment. Other startups, such as From Energy is scaling up production of Iron Air batteries in West Virginia, which will be an order of magnitude cheaper than lithium ion and will provide grid scale power [1]. North Harbour Clean Energy Promised to build a manufacturing facility in Australia to build Vanadium Flow batteries, which have very high charge cycle in their lifetime and can store energy for longer durations [2]. The advantage with Sodium Ion is that, although energy densities are lower than Lithium Ion, it could still be used to power mobile devices and electric vehicles. [1] https://www.wesa.fm/environment-energy/2024-02-19/weirton-form-energy-battery-manufacturing https://www.wesa.fm/environment-energy/2024-02-19/weirton-fo... [2] https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2023-02-02/vanadium-redox-flow-battery-and-future-of-grid-energy-storage/101911604 https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2023-02-02/vanadium-redo...

bjornsing 2y ago
Interesting. Is there a public spreadsheet or similar summarizing the most important properties of these new battery types? It takes forever to just research one of them in enough depth to understand their basic properties, and I’d like to compare many.
- fwungy 2y ago
  DOE puts out comparison papers at times, but I haven't looked in a while.
  - ForOldHack 2y ago
    "The energy density of sodium ion batteries is low.It is only 100-150Wh/kg, while the energy density of lithium energy is 120-180Wh/kg. This means that for batteries of the same size, sodium-ion batteries can store much less energy than lithium-ion batteries.Jan 2, 2024" https://www.dnkpower.com/will-sodium-batteries-replace-lithium-batteries/ https://www.dnkpower.com/will-sodium-batteries-replace-lithi...
    - shrx 2y ago
      That's 20% less, not "much less".
      - myself248 2y ago
        Furthermore, we're decades into lithium optimization, and sodium is yet quite young. Being within 20% so early in the game is remarkable!
    - creeble 2y ago
      Depends on where you get your numbers: “The density of sodium batteries is still relatively low, between 140 Wh/Kg and 160 Wh/kg, compared to lithium-ion battery’s 180 Wh/Kg–250 Wh/Kg.” https://www.flashbattery.tech/en/sodium-batteries/ https://www.flashbattery.tech/en/sodium-batteries/
      - h0l0cube 2y ago
        Depends on whether you're talking about a single battery cell or a pack.
quitit 2y ago
This is truly one of those "it begins" moments. The article touches on it - but the news goes well beyond the battery. Li ion batteries come with significant geopolitical baggage beyond simple cost. The situation is well summarised by the graph on this page. https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2023/01/chart-countries-produce-lithium-world/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2023/01/chart-countries-produ...
- jdewerd 2y ago
  "Mostly from Australia and Chile" seems like the opposite of baggage, that sounds like about the best you could hope for in a global commodity, so many of which come from unstable regions, conflict regions, or outright adversaries. Yes, I know that China does most of the refining/assembly, but that has little to do with the chemistry. "Building new Na-ion capacity outside China" is probably even harder than "building new li-ion capacity outside China."
  - quitit 2y ago
    Let's unpack it then. You've stated: >"Mostly from Australia and Chile" seems like the opposite of baggage, that sounds like about the best you could hope for in a global commodity, so many of which come from unstable regions, conflict regions, or outright adversaries. So let's break it down with some facts (all easily searchable.) (1) The graph states that Australia is the largest producer of Lithium, and states that of their exports, 90% goes to China. (2) Australia exports the majority of its lithium. (https://www.abs.gov.au/articles/insights-australian-exports-lithium https://www.abs.gov.au/articles/insights-australian-exports-...) (3) Lithium ion batteries are currently reliant on Cobalt for their cathode. (4) The DRC (Congo) is the largest producer of Cobalt, then Indonesia, then Russia. >"seems like the opposite of baggage ... unstable regions, conflict regions, or outright adversaries" From (1) and (2) we can see that the world is dependent on China for the only viable battery option for a range of modern applications. Thus the claim that this isn't baggage is not supported. Secondly China is also considered an adversary of the USA, by the USA. Thirdly the claim that this does not involve unstable/conflict regions is also not supported due to (3) and (4). Part two: you've also stated the below: >"Building new Na-ion capacity outside China" is probably even harder than "building new li-ion capacity outside China." While this is a baseless comment, let's look at it anyway: (5) The article is specifically about the commencement of mass production of Na batteries in the USA. That already refutes the core premise of your statement, but let's follow it further. (6) The article notes that unlike Li batteries, the materials are trivially sourced domestically. That's an important difference from Li batteries, and significantly boosts the viability of competitive production in the USA (and other countries outside of China).
kaliszad 2y ago
Of course, sodium can be used in its metal form directly to produce electricity in a fuel cell e.g. as described in US3730776A (https://patents.google.com/patent/US3730776A/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US3730776A/en). The fuel cell does not require any special materials, however it still is a challenge to construct from the engineering point of view. Also, the proposed design can be greatly improved with additional knowledge about the reactions occurring. The resulting sodium hydroxide solution can be recycled using the well known Castner process, the "waste" hydrogen resulting from both reactions can be used as fuel or for other industrial processes. Btw. the energy density of sodium metal is 3694 Wh/kg and 3555 Wh/litre - so an order of magnitude more. Also, the advantage of decoupling capacity from power is dramatic. Of course, you can also split the process of storing and releasing of energy which can be an advantage. Last but not least, sodium in its metal form is not hard to store or to transport. At ~100°C it becomes liquid and therefore even easier to transfer using regular steel pipes.
glial 2y ago
There is also an iron air battery project in Minnesota: https://www.mprnews.org/story/2023/02/10/rusty-batteries-could-hold-key-to-carbonfree-power-future https://www.mprnews.org/story/2023/02/10/rusty-batteries-cou...
davedx 2y ago
> which will be an order of magnitude cheaper than lithium ion Maybe. But take a lot of these cost claims with a giant pinch of salt: TCOE/TCOS at scale is what matters and we won’t have any real idea what that will be while most of these battery chemistries are still pre commercialization. That being said the cambrian explosion is very encouraging. Just good to temper optimism sometimes. Source: I talk to grid battery developers for my business
- pfdietz 2y ago
  The issue with iron-air batteries is their lower charging/discharge current. So they focus on a different storage niche: week-scale storage. Storage at different timescales can coexist and work together on a grid, since the mismatch of supply and demand, when viewed as its Fourier transform, has components at multiple different timescales.
  - donny2018 2y ago
    Another issue is round trip efficiency. Iron-air, I believe, is somewhere at 50-60% (you lose almost half of the energy that you pump in). While LFP and the Sodium battery mentioned in the title, is 95-97%.
    - pfdietz 2y ago
      True, although for a battery system with a given economic lifespan, the "cost of inefficiency" is inversely proportional to the average storage time. So, it's 7x less important for weekly vs. daily storage.
- mulmen 2y ago
  > Just good to temper optimism sometimes. Sure. But is it really? Like in what way is it good? I see a lot more “tempering” than I do breathless optimism. Is any serious person in a position to do something meaningful with the batteries falling prey to hype that needs to be tempered?
- ForOldHack 2y ago
rockskon 2y ago
Lesser energy density is a pretty big caveat that can readily make or break the commercial viability of this technology. How big of a difference compared to lithium ion is the energy density?
- eliaspro 2y ago
  Density doesn't really matter for stationary grid storage, where even slightly lower battery costs can easily outmatch higher space requirements.
  - zardo 2y ago
    It matters, but only as much as shipping costs matter.
  - rockskon 2y ago
    Given the stated use cases of the post I responded to was electric vehicles and mobile devices, my response was framed in terms of that. Consumer devices - especially phones - famously prioritize battery life.
    - shkkmo 2y ago
      They also prioritize price, especially at the low end. If sodium batteries are significantly cheaper, it will be used to produce low cost devices.
      - rockskon 2y ago
        What? Smart phones are famously high-margin devices. What do you mean "prioritize price"? Not for most smart phones.
        IntelMiner 2y ago
        There's a few billion people who can't afford the latest model iPhone or Google Pixel device each year
lukan 2y ago
"The advantage with Sodium Ion is that, although energy densities are lower than Lithium Ion, it could still be used to power mobile devices and electric vehicles." It already does. "Chinese automaker Yiwei debuted the first sodium-ion battery-powered car in 2023. It uses JAC Group’s UE module technology, which is similar to CATL's cell-to-pack design.[84] The car has a 23.2 kWh battery pack with a CLTC range of 230 kilometres (140 mi)" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-ion_battery https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-ion_battery
- creativeSlumber 2y ago
  > The car has a 23.2 kWh battery pack with a CLTC range of 230 kilometers (140 mi) 23.2 kWh achieving 140 miles range sounds unrealistic. For example the 57kWh model 3 has a range of ~260 miles.
  - lukan 2y ago
    Why? The energy consumption seems to be even a bit better than of the model 3 "with energy consumption approaching 10 kWh per 100km." So roughly half capacity equals roughly half range - sounds about right to me (23.2 kWh are the same avaiable energy, whether sodium or lithium).
thelastgallon 2y ago
> The advantage with Sodium Ion is that, although energy densities are lower than Lithium Ion, it could still be used to power mobile devices and electric vehicles. There is an insightful comment by AtlasBarfed: Keep in mind sodium ion and LFP are much safer and don't require nearly as much cooling and management systems as nickel-cobalt chemistries: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38363603 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38363603 Read the whole comment, it is pretty detailed and explains why the lower density of Sodium Ion doesn't matter as much as people think.
- jillesvangurp 2y ago
  It's a point that's easily overlooked. Battery density only matters in vehicles that need to be small or light (like a sports vehicle or a plane). In a truck, sacrificing a few tons for some batteries is not that big of a deal. What matters more is the price of those batteries. As those prices come down, demand will go up by a lot. That's happening right now. It's been happening for a few years now.
jillesvangurp 2y ago
Bloomberg NEF actually ran an interesting article a few weeks ago suggesting that we'll have all the batteries we need to electrify all road traffic: https://about.bnef.com/blog/china-already-makes-as-many-batteries-as-the-entire-world-wants/ https://about.bnef.com/blog/china-already-makes-as-many-batt... They are tracking all the companies and investments involved with battery production and one of their claims is that new battery production is going to outstrip demand in the next few years. That will likely mean significant price drops for batteries. And it also means that companies outside of China may be struggling to become cost competitive.
m463 2y ago
Haven't we had battery chemistries change in less noticable ways over maybe 50 years? Mostly lead-acid batteries (both wet cell and dry cell), then alkaline batteries, nicad, nimh, lithium ion batteries, lithium polymer, lifep04, and more

bjornsing 2y ago

Interesting. Is there a public spreadsheet or similar summarizing the most important properties of these new battery types? It takes forever to just research one of them in enough depth to understand their basic properties, and I’d like to compare many.

fwungy 2y ago
DOE puts out comparison papers at times, but I haven't looked in a while.
- ForOldHack 2y ago
  "The energy density of sodium ion batteries is low.It is only 100-150Wh/kg, while the energy density of lithium energy is 120-180Wh/kg. This means that for batteries of the same size, sodium-ion batteries can store much less energy than lithium-ion batteries.Jan 2, 2024" https://www.dnkpower.com/will-sodium-batteries-replace-lithium-batteries/ https://www.dnkpower.com/will-sodium-batteries-replace-lithi...
  - shrx 2y ago
    That's 20% less, not "much less".
    - myself248 2y ago
      Furthermore, we're decades into lithium optimization, and sodium is yet quite young. Being within 20% so early in the game is remarkable!
  - creeble 2y ago
    Depends on where you get your numbers: “The density of sodium batteries is still relatively low, between 140 Wh/Kg and 160 Wh/kg, compared to lithium-ion battery’s 180 Wh/Kg–250 Wh/Kg.” https://www.flashbattery.tech/en/sodium-batteries/ https://www.flashbattery.tech/en/sodium-batteries/
    - h0l0cube 2y ago
      Depends on whether you're talking about a single battery cell or a pack.

quitit 2y ago

This is truly one of those "it begins" moments. The article touches on it - but the news goes well beyond the battery. Li ion batteries come with significant geopolitical baggage beyond simple cost. The situation is well summarised by the graph on this page. https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2023/01/chart-countries-produce-lithium-world/ https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2023/01/chart-countries-produ...

jdewerd 2y ago
"Mostly from Australia and Chile" seems like the opposite of baggage, that sounds like about the best you could hope for in a global commodity, so many of which come from unstable regions, conflict regions, or outright adversaries. Yes, I know that China does most of the refining/assembly, but that has little to do with the chemistry. "Building new Na-ion capacity outside China" is probably even harder than "building new li-ion capacity outside China."
- quitit 2y ago
  Let's unpack it then. You've stated: >"Mostly from Australia and Chile" seems like the opposite of baggage, that sounds like about the best you could hope for in a global commodity, so many of which come from unstable regions, conflict regions, or outright adversaries. So let's break it down with some facts (all easily searchable.) (1) The graph states that Australia is the largest producer of Lithium, and states that of their exports, 90% goes to China. (2) Australia exports the majority of its lithium. (https://www.abs.gov.au/articles/insights-australian-exports-lithium https://www.abs.gov.au/articles/insights-australian-exports-...) (3) Lithium ion batteries are currently reliant on Cobalt for their cathode. (4) The DRC (Congo) is the largest producer of Cobalt, then Indonesia, then Russia. >"seems like the opposite of baggage ... unstable regions, conflict regions, or outright adversaries" From (1) and (2) we can see that the world is dependent on China for the only viable battery option for a range of modern applications. Thus the claim that this isn't baggage is not supported. Secondly China is also considered an adversary of the USA, by the USA. Thirdly the claim that this does not involve unstable/conflict regions is also not supported due to (3) and (4). Part two: you've also stated the below: >"Building new Na-ion capacity outside China" is probably even harder than "building new li-ion capacity outside China." While this is a baseless comment, let's look at it anyway: (5) The article is specifically about the commencement of mass production of Na batteries in the USA. That already refutes the core premise of your statement, but let's follow it further. (6) The article notes that unlike Li batteries, the materials are trivially sourced domestically. That's an important difference from Li batteries, and significantly boosts the viability of competitive production in the USA (and other countries outside of China).

kaliszad 2y ago

Of course, sodium can be used in its metal form directly to produce electricity in a fuel cell e.g. as described in US3730776A (https://patents.google.com/patent/US3730776A/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US3730776A/en). The fuel cell does not require any special materials, however it still is a challenge to construct from the engineering point of view. Also, the proposed design can be greatly improved with additional knowledge about the reactions occurring. The resulting sodium hydroxide solution can be recycled using the well known Castner process, the "waste" hydrogen resulting from both reactions can be used as fuel or for other industrial processes. Btw. the energy density of sodium metal is 3694 Wh/kg and 3555 Wh/litre - so an order of magnitude more. Also, the advantage of decoupling capacity from power is dramatic. Of course, you can also split the process of storing and releasing of energy which can be an advantage. Last but not least, sodium in its metal form is not hard to store or to transport. At ~100°C it becomes liquid and therefore even easier to transfer using regular steel pipes.

glial 2y ago

There is also an iron air battery project in Minnesota: https://www.mprnews.org/story/2023/02/10/rusty-batteries-could-hold-key-to-carbonfree-power-future https://www.mprnews.org/story/2023/02/10/rusty-batteries-cou...

davedx 2y ago

> which will be an order of magnitude cheaper than lithium ion Maybe. But take a lot of these cost claims with a giant pinch of salt: TCOE/TCOS at scale is what matters and we won’t have any real idea what that will be while most of these battery chemistries are still pre commercialization. That being said the cambrian explosion is very encouraging. Just good to temper optimism sometimes. Source: I talk to grid battery developers for my business

pfdietz 2y ago
The issue with iron-air batteries is their lower charging/discharge current. So they focus on a different storage niche: week-scale storage. Storage at different timescales can coexist and work together on a grid, since the mismatch of supply and demand, when viewed as its Fourier transform, has components at multiple different timescales.
- donny2018 2y ago
  Another issue is round trip efficiency. Iron-air, I believe, is somewhere at 50-60% (you lose almost half of the energy that you pump in). While LFP and the Sodium battery mentioned in the title, is 95-97%.
  - pfdietz 2y ago
    True, although for a battery system with a given economic lifespan, the "cost of inefficiency" is inversely proportional to the average storage time. So, it's 7x less important for weekly vs. daily storage.
mulmen 2y ago
> Just good to temper optimism sometimes. Sure. But is it really? Like in what way is it good? I see a lot more “tempering” than I do breathless optimism. Is any serious person in a position to do something meaningful with the batteries falling prey to hype that needs to be tempered?
ForOldHack 2y ago

rockskon 2y ago

Lesser energy density is a pretty big caveat that can readily make or break the commercial viability of this technology. How big of a difference compared to lithium ion is the energy density?

eliaspro 2y ago
Density doesn't really matter for stationary grid storage, where even slightly lower battery costs can easily outmatch higher space requirements.
- zardo 2y ago
  It matters, but only as much as shipping costs matter.
- rockskon 2y ago
  Given the stated use cases of the post I responded to was electric vehicles and mobile devices, my response was framed in terms of that. Consumer devices - especially phones - famously prioritize battery life.
  - shkkmo 2y ago
    They also prioritize price, especially at the low end. If sodium batteries are significantly cheaper, it will be used to produce low cost devices.
    - rockskon 2y ago
      What? Smart phones are famously high-margin devices. What do you mean "prioritize price"? Not for most smart phones.
      - IntelMiner 2y ago
        There's a few billion people who can't afford the latest model iPhone or Google Pixel device each year

lukan 2y ago

"The advantage with Sodium Ion is that, although energy densities are lower than Lithium Ion, it could still be used to power mobile devices and electric vehicles." It already does. "Chinese automaker Yiwei debuted the first sodium-ion battery-powered car in 2023. It uses JAC Group’s UE module technology, which is similar to CATL's cell-to-pack design.[84] The car has a 23.2 kWh battery pack with a CLTC range of 230 kilometres (140 mi)" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-ion_battery https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-ion_battery

creativeSlumber 2y ago
> The car has a 23.2 kWh battery pack with a CLTC range of 230 kilometers (140 mi) 23.2 kWh achieving 140 miles range sounds unrealistic. For example the 57kWh model 3 has a range of ~260 miles.
- lukan 2y ago
  Why? The energy consumption seems to be even a bit better than of the model 3 "with energy consumption approaching 10 kWh per 100km." So roughly half capacity equals roughly half range - sounds about right to me (23.2 kWh are the same avaiable energy, whether sodium or lithium).

thelastgallon 2y ago

> The advantage with Sodium Ion is that, although energy densities are lower than Lithium Ion, it could still be used to power mobile devices and electric vehicles. There is an insightful comment by AtlasBarfed: Keep in mind sodium ion and LFP are much safer and don't require nearly as much cooling and management systems as nickel-cobalt chemistries: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38363603 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38363603 Read the whole comment, it is pretty detailed and explains why the lower density of Sodium Ion doesn't matter as much as people think.

jillesvangurp 2y ago
It's a point that's easily overlooked. Battery density only matters in vehicles that need to be small or light (like a sports vehicle or a plane). In a truck, sacrificing a few tons for some batteries is not that big of a deal. What matters more is the price of those batteries. As those prices come down, demand will go up by a lot. That's happening right now. It's been happening for a few years now.

jillesvangurp 2y ago

Bloomberg NEF actually ran an interesting article a few weeks ago suggesting that we'll have all the batteries we need to electrify all road traffic: https://about.bnef.com/blog/china-already-makes-as-many-batteries-as-the-entire-world-wants/ https://about.bnef.com/blog/china-already-makes-as-many-batt... They are tracking all the companies and investments involved with battery production and one of their claims is that new battery production is going to outstrip demand in the next few years. That will likely mean significant price drops for batteries. And it also means that companies outside of China may be struggling to become cost competitive.

m463 2y ago

Haven't we had battery chemistries change in less noticable ways over maybe 50 years? Mostly lead-acid batteries (both wet cell and dry cell), then alkaline batteries, nicad, nimh, lithium ion batteries, lithium polymer, lifep04, and more