7 ms·

rethinkdns dev here > these issues should be addressed in the OS in order to protect all Android users regardless of which apps they use. Android's paranoid n

rethinkdns dev here > these issues should be addressed in the OS in order to protect all Android users regardless of which apps they use. Android's paranoid networking has always had an exception for System and OEM apps (which include Google apps). Most such bugs fixes are unlikely to fix that core assumption. Some code refs: https://github.com/celzero/rethink-app/issues/224 https://github.com/celzero/rethink-app/issues/224 > The leak during tunnel reconnects is harder for us to mitigate in our app. We are still looking for solutions. Android supports seamless handover between two TUN devices (on reconfiguration). It is tricky to get it right, but implementable.

cma 3y ago
They don't even allow disabling internet permissions on a flashlight app, the OS is run by an internet ad company so it makes sense.
- switch007 3y ago
  FWIW GrapheneOS does (it asks you before installing any app)
  - codedokode 2y ago
    As I understand, it installs a pseudo-VPN and passes traffic through it. I remember using similar app (NoRoot Firewall), and it worked poorly and couldn't block everything I wanted.
    - switch007 2y ago
      GrapheneOS is totally different to having an app on stock android > GrapheneOS adds a Network permission toggle for disallowing both direct and indirect access to any of the available networks. The device-local network (localhost) is also guarded by this permission, which is important for preventing apps from using it to communicate between profiles. Unlike a firewall-based implementation, the Network permission toggle prevents apps from using the network via APIs provided by the OS or other apps in the same profile as long as they're marked appropriately. >The standard INTERNET permission used as the basis for the Network permission toggle is enhanced with a second layer of enforcement and proper support for granting/revoking it on a per-profile basis. > To avoid breaking compatibility with Android apps, the added permission toggle is enabled by default. However, the OS app installation UI has been extended to show the toggle as part of the installation confirmation page so users can disable it when installing an app. > when the Network permission is disabled, GrapheneOS pretends the network is down. It shows the network as down in various APIs, returns errors showing a network connectivity issue rather than a revoked permission and avoids running scheduled jobs depending on the network. This results in apps handling it as if the network is down rather than crashing or showing errors from trying to use the network and being unable to do it.
    - sureglymop 2y ago
      Nope. GrapheneOS is an AOSP fork (with not so many modifications) intended to be more secure. It doesn't do it in a hacky way, these apps just don't get the internet permission. And it lets you install Play Services as a normal app (not a system app) so you choose what permissions that gets.
- Larrikin 3y ago
  Can you link to the documentation explaining how developers disable Internet permissions on iOS.
  - loa_in_ 3y ago
    Unfortunately a race to the bottom is a bad thing, not an excuse
  - paulddraper 3y ago
    Or any other operating system...
    - adamomada 2y ago
      Third party app firewalls exist for at least macOS and Linux distros. It’s likely built in to the system as well, but you’d have to wrangle the command to do it in the terminal.
      - lern_too_spel 2y ago
        They also exist for Android, for that matter.
    - Too 2y ago
      Depending on how blur you draw the line of os: docker run --network none
    - Dylan16807 2y ago
      For windows you go into the firewall settings and either set a deny rule for a specific executable or even set the default behavior to deny. For linux there's a couple ways of setting up a process group that can't access your network. I'm not very familiar with other OSes. Why do you ask? Isolation between processes can be difficult on non-phone operating systems, but removing permissions tends to be quite easy.
  - chefandy 2y ago
    My network security requirements have nothing to do with iOS. Can't we just collectively drop OS tribalism?
- lambdaxyzw 3y ago
  Which flashlight app? As far as I know there is no official flashlight app (though recently there is a built in flashlight feature). How is Google responsible for a third party app that refuses to work without an internet access?
  - chimeracoder 3y ago
    > Which flashlight app? As far as I know there is no official flashlight app (though recently there is a built in flashlight feature). How is Google responsible for a third party app that refuses to work without an internet access? GP is saying that the Android permissions model requires giving Internet access to any app you install from the Play Store; there isn't a way for an app to request "zero permissions" (or rather, there is, but basic Internet access is a permission granted to all apps, even when zero additional entitlements are requested). That said, this isn't unique to Android. At least as of a few years ago, iOS did more or less the same thing. (You can disable an app's access to the local network, but that's not the same thing as denying (or requiring an app to request) basic network connectivity).
    - nickburns 3y ago
      still the same. Alphabet nor Apple have any real incentive to change this (commercial incentivization to maintain it notwithstanding).
      - beeboobaa3 3y ago
        Thats exactly the point that is being made, yes.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    - toast0 3y ago
      Google doesn't let you deny permissions for most of them. As I understand it, apps that use the internet still need an entitlement, it's just that the Google Play store no longer shows that one in the list.
- talldayo 3y ago
  Netguard is an open-source program that helps fix this: https://netguard.me/ https://netguard.me/
- fifteen1506 3y ago
  GrapheneOS does if you're willing to take the plunge.
  - metadat 3y ago
    Take the plunge to not do any banking on your phone. It's an unfortunate limitation for a device I own to be handicapped this way.
    - madmads 3y ago
      Not universally true, I use banking apps on my Pixel running the latest GrapheneOS. There is literally nothing I cannot do on my phone. I think it's possible that no US banks have apps that can be used as it seems a universal experience among Americans.
      - mkopec 2y ago
        Do Android Auto and VoLTE / VoWiFi work on Graphene these days? I also remember Google Maps and Uber being extremely problematic
        sureglymop 2y ago
        I think they work if you install Google Play Services (as a sandboxed app). What doesn't work for me is contactless payments with Google Pay however Google Wallet itself works. But I think that is actually intended and for security reasons.
        mbananasynergy 2y ago
        Google Wallet is usable on GrapheneOS, but Google artificially restricts contactless payment functionality to Google-certified OSes. It's not a real security check that they're doing, but rather just checking for certification, which is very unfortunate.
        ajvpot 2y ago
- lxgr 2y ago
  Is android.permission.INTERNET not a thing anymore? Unlike iOS, Android at least used to have this one. I sometimes wish I could just configure that per-app as a user. Frustratingly, on iOS it's possible only for mobile data, but not for Wi-Fi – why!?
  - adamomada 2y ago
    A possible answer is it’s not really a privacy setting but instead to save you from carrier data charges. I agree that there should be an app firewall to the point I’m running an older phone w the checkm8 jailbreak to have a firewall.
    - bornfreddy 2y ago
      On Android there is NetGuard which poses as a (local, running on the phone) VPN and allows you to deny / allow traffic based on process and domain. Works great, no root needed.
      - cma 2y ago
        Then you can't run another VPN right? Then raw through Verizon with their tracking headers and stuff for anything non-https unless you go through the series of opt outs that get periodically invalidated with a new opt out needed.
        bornfreddy 2y ago
        Just checked, there doesn't seem to be an option for it (though technically it should be possible, I think). Sorry to hear about Verizon - hopefully mobile will soon be a viable option for you. Good luck!
        ignoramous 2y ago
        You can run WireGuard (as a proxy not a VPN; ie, TCP/UDP only) with Rethink DNS + Firewall, an app I co-develop: https://github.com/celzero/rethink-app https://github.com/celzero/rethink-app
- codedokode 2y ago
  That's what you get when you trust your device to commercial companies.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
    That's what you get when there are no practical alternatives.
    - CommitSyn 2y ago
      Speaking of, did FairPhone get the whole "making a phone call" thing figured out yet?
- kernal 2y ago
  That hypothetical Flashlight app, that uses location permission, would have never been approved in the first place. https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answer/9799150?hl=en#Does%20your%20app%20need%20access%20to%20location%20in%20the%20background https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answ...?
  - carstenhag 2y ago
    This is about the continuous background location permission. In the past years they have cracked down on this, yes. But nothing forbids you from requesting the foreground approximate or fine location permissions. So yes, this hypothetical flashlight app can request the permission. The user has to allow it in some way - approx or precise, one-time or always. But also nowadays the users sees when & what app is requesting these kind of permissions. It's a moot point. (For background location there's an extensive form in the play store, you even have to send videos in many cases - for foreground, there's nothing)
    - izacus 2y ago
      Or... they can just use the builtin tile. This is such a bizarre offtopic theorycrafting fest based on decade old ideas.
  - Dylan16807 2y ago
    Who said anything about location permission? Did they edit their post? I just see "They don't even allow disabling internet permissions on a flashlight app, the OS is run by an internet ad company so it makes sense." If you're implying that you need location permission to turn internet access into a tracking problem, you're wrong.
  - cma 2y ago
    Play Protect and the approval process are mostly make-work because you don't have control over internet permissions--because Google needs them everywhere for their ads business they have to put a lot of energy into this edifice.
- infthi 2y ago
  This depends on the firmware used. I am writing this comment from an Oneplus device which allows blocking internet access on a per-app basis - on a stock firmware.
  - hnburnsy 2y ago
    Is that still available on recent One plus versions. I had that on my 5 and was appreciative.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- adamomada 2y ago
  To be fair, it’s the application developer who requests the application’s permissions and it is possible to release an app without internet permission. I agree that the OS should have a way to override the permission, but it’s not Android itself just giving out internet access by default. It’s more that it’s almost every developer’s default setting when building the app. The best example of no internet permission in an app off the top of my head is Hacker’s Keyboard – and you can understand why the developer chose to avoid it.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

cma 3y ago

They don't even allow disabling internet permissions on a flashlight app, the OS is run by an internet ad company so it makes sense.

switch007 3y ago
FWIW GrapheneOS does (it asks you before installing any app)
- codedokode 2y ago
  As I understand, it installs a pseudo-VPN and passes traffic through it. I remember using similar app (NoRoot Firewall), and it worked poorly and couldn't block everything I wanted.
  - switch007 2y ago
    GrapheneOS is totally different to having an app on stock android > GrapheneOS adds a Network permission toggle for disallowing both direct and indirect access to any of the available networks. The device-local network (localhost) is also guarded by this permission, which is important for preventing apps from using it to communicate between profiles. Unlike a firewall-based implementation, the Network permission toggle prevents apps from using the network via APIs provided by the OS or other apps in the same profile as long as they're marked appropriately. >The standard INTERNET permission used as the basis for the Network permission toggle is enhanced with a second layer of enforcement and proper support for granting/revoking it on a per-profile basis. > To avoid breaking compatibility with Android apps, the added permission toggle is enabled by default. However, the OS app installation UI has been extended to show the toggle as part of the installation confirmation page so users can disable it when installing an app. > when the Network permission is disabled, GrapheneOS pretends the network is down. It shows the network as down in various APIs, returns errors showing a network connectivity issue rather than a revoked permission and avoids running scheduled jobs depending on the network. This results in apps handling it as if the network is down rather than crashing or showing errors from trying to use the network and being unable to do it.
  - sureglymop 2y ago
    Nope. GrapheneOS is an AOSP fork (with not so many modifications) intended to be more secure. It doesn't do it in a hacky way, these apps just don't get the internet permission. And it lets you install Play Services as a normal app (not a system app) so you choose what permissions that gets.
Larrikin 3y ago
Can you link to the documentation explaining how developers disable Internet permissions on iOS.
- loa_in_ 3y ago
  Unfortunately a race to the bottom is a bad thing, not an excuse
- paulddraper 3y ago
  Or any other operating system...
  - adamomada 2y ago
    Third party app firewalls exist for at least macOS and Linux distros. It’s likely built in to the system as well, but you’d have to wrangle the command to do it in the terminal.
    - lern_too_spel 2y ago
      They also exist for Android, for that matter.
  - Too 2y ago
    Depending on how blur you draw the line of os: docker run --network none
  - Dylan16807 2y ago
    For windows you go into the firewall settings and either set a deny rule for a specific executable or even set the default behavior to deny. For linux there's a couple ways of setting up a process group that can't access your network. I'm not very familiar with other OSes. Why do you ask? Isolation between processes can be difficult on non-phone operating systems, but removing permissions tends to be quite easy.
- chefandy 2y ago
  My network security requirements have nothing to do with iOS. Can't we just collectively drop OS tribalism?
lambdaxyzw 3y ago
Which flashlight app? As far as I know there is no official flashlight app (though recently there is a built in flashlight feature). How is Google responsible for a third party app that refuses to work without an internet access?
- chimeracoder 3y ago
  > Which flashlight app? As far as I know there is no official flashlight app (though recently there is a built in flashlight feature). How is Google responsible for a third party app that refuses to work without an internet access? GP is saying that the Android permissions model requires giving Internet access to any app you install from the Play Store; there isn't a way for an app to request "zero permissions" (or rather, there is, but basic Internet access is a permission granted to all apps, even when zero additional entitlements are requested). That said, this isn't unique to Android. At least as of a few years ago, iOS did more or less the same thing. (You can disable an app's access to the local network, but that's not the same thing as denying (or requiring an app to request) basic network connectivity).
  - nickburns 3y ago
    still the same. Alphabet nor Apple have any real incentive to change this (commercial incentivization to maintain it notwithstanding).
    - beeboobaa3 3y ago
      Thats exactly the point that is being made, yes.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
  - toast0 3y ago
    Google doesn't let you deny permissions for most of them. As I understand it, apps that use the internet still need an entitlement, it's just that the Google Play store no longer shows that one in the list.
talldayo 3y ago
Netguard is an open-source program that helps fix this: https://netguard.me/ https://netguard.me/
fifteen1506 3y ago
GrapheneOS does if you're willing to take the plunge.
- metadat 3y ago
  Take the plunge to not do any banking on your phone. It's an unfortunate limitation for a device I own to be handicapped this way.
  - madmads 3y ago
    Not universally true, I use banking apps on my Pixel running the latest GrapheneOS. There is literally nothing I cannot do on my phone. I think it's possible that no US banks have apps that can be used as it seems a universal experience among Americans.
    - mkopec 2y ago
      Do Android Auto and VoLTE / VoWiFi work on Graphene these days? I also remember Google Maps and Uber being extremely problematic
      - sureglymop 2y ago
        I think they work if you install Google Play Services (as a sandboxed app). What doesn't work for me is contactless payments with Google Pay however Google Wallet itself works. But I think that is actually intended and for security reasons.
        mbananasynergy 2y ago
        Google Wallet is usable on GrapheneOS, but Google artificially restricts contactless payment functionality to Google-certified OSes. It's not a real security check that they're doing, but rather just checking for certification, which is very unfortunate.
      - ajvpot 2y ago
lxgr 2y ago
Is android.permission.INTERNET not a thing anymore? Unlike iOS, Android at least used to have this one. I sometimes wish I could just configure that per-app as a user. Frustratingly, on iOS it's possible only for mobile data, but not for Wi-Fi – why!?
- adamomada 2y ago
  A possible answer is it’s not really a privacy setting but instead to save you from carrier data charges. I agree that there should be an app firewall to the point I’m running an older phone w the checkm8 jailbreak to have a firewall.
  - bornfreddy 2y ago
    On Android there is NetGuard which poses as a (local, running on the phone) VPN and allows you to deny / allow traffic based on process and domain. Works great, no root needed.
    - cma 2y ago
      Then you can't run another VPN right? Then raw through Verizon with their tracking headers and stuff for anything non-https unless you go through the series of opt outs that get periodically invalidated with a new opt out needed.
      - bornfreddy 2y ago
        Just checked, there doesn't seem to be an option for it (though technically it should be possible, I think). Sorry to hear about Verizon - hopefully mobile will soon be a viable option for you. Good luck!
        ignoramous 2y ago
        You can run WireGuard (as a proxy not a VPN; ie, TCP/UDP only) with Rethink DNS + Firewall, an app I co-develop: https://github.com/celzero/rethink-app https://github.com/celzero/rethink-app
codedokode 2y ago
That's what you get when you trust your device to commercial companies.
- yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
  That's what you get when there are no practical alternatives.
  - CommitSyn 2y ago
    Speaking of, did FairPhone get the whole "making a phone call" thing figured out yet?
kernal 2y ago
That hypothetical Flashlight app, that uses location permission, would have never been approved in the first place. https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answer/9799150?hl=en#Does%20your%20app%20need%20access%20to%20location%20in%20the%20background https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answ...?
- carstenhag 2y ago
  This is about the continuous background location permission. In the past years they have cracked down on this, yes. But nothing forbids you from requesting the foreground approximate or fine location permissions. So yes, this hypothetical flashlight app can request the permission. The user has to allow it in some way - approx or precise, one-time or always. But also nowadays the users sees when & what app is requesting these kind of permissions. It's a moot point. (For background location there's an extensive form in the play store, you even have to send videos in many cases - for foreground, there's nothing)
  - izacus 2y ago
    Or... they can just use the builtin tile. This is such a bizarre offtopic theorycrafting fest based on decade old ideas.
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  Who said anything about location permission? Did they edit their post? I just see "They don't even allow disabling internet permissions on a flashlight app, the OS is run by an internet ad company so it makes sense." If you're implying that you need location permission to turn internet access into a tracking problem, you're wrong.
- cma 2y ago
  Play Protect and the approval process are mostly make-work because you don't have control over internet permissions--because Google needs them everywhere for their ads business they have to put a lot of energy into this edifice.
infthi 2y ago
This depends on the firmware used. I am writing this comment from an Oneplus device which allows blocking internet access on a per-app basis - on a stock firmware.
- hnburnsy 2y ago
  Is that still available on recent One plus versions. I had that on my 5 and was appreciative.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
adamomada 2y ago
To be fair, it’s the application developer who requests the application’s permissions and it is possible to release an app without internet permission. I agree that the OS should have a way to override the permission, but it’s not Android itself just giving out internet access by default. It’s more that it’s almost every developer’s default setting when building the app. The best example of no internet permission in an app off the top of my head is Hacker’s Keyboard – and you can understand why the developer chose to avoid it.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]