5 ms·

Auckland: A city with a labyrinth of underground caves

74 points by keepamovin 3y ago

andrewstuart 3y ago
Off topic but the thing that I find most interesting about New Zealand is that there were no humans at all there until the 1400's. It was an untouched bird paradise. Fascinating to think that only hundreds of years ago there was an entirely uninhabited country.
- keepamovin 3y ago
  Yeah, that is fascinating. good point. Is it impossible that there were humans there a loooong time before who then left/died out? Would be interesting too haha :)
  - input_sh 3y ago
    No, because they'd leave some evidence behind. In general, it is agreed upon that Kupe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kupe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kupe) was the first one to discover it, shortly before Mount Tarawera (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Tarawera https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Tarawera) errupted in 1312 (give or take), and more permanent settlements appeared some (<10) years later. None of this is 100% confirmed of course, but it's a more straightforward origin story than most places.
  - mkl 3y ago
    No, there would be evidence. It was really hard to get to, as it required a significant amount of seafaring technology and knowledge. Check out the dates on this map: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austronesian_peoples#/media/File:Chronological_dispersal_of_Austronesian_people_across_the_Pacific.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austronesian_peoples#/media/Fi...
- 082349872349872 3y ago
  There was rapid cultural evolution among the Māori as well; consider the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pā#Gunfighter_pā https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pā#Gunfighter_pā . I don't know if they came up with bastions independently or swiped them from the Empire, but, having been used to full and frank discussions among themselves, they certainly adjusted quickly to artillery. > The British used to think the bayonet was the most lethal of all hand to hand combat weapons, till they came across our warriors, who fought with the Taiaha. You think your fist is your weapon? When I have taught you, your mind will be. —??B
- malux85 3y ago
  Kiwi here - Here's something cool: My grandparents (both still alive but over 100) grandparents were among the first settlers here in NZ. Not the very first to land, a few decades after that, but early enough that they had to build a single room shelter out of clay and mud, and hunt in nature for food. Now, as I sit on the 20th floor in an air conditioned flat with gigabit ethernet, I overlook the city, and marvel about how quickly a country can be built up from nothing. One other thing that is interesting, my grandparents were farmers their whole lives and only recently retired, when they started farming they were still using horses, and now their farm has computer controlled, almost entirely automated combine harvestors, they themselves often tell us they cant believe the rate at which farming automation advanced - they manage an enormous farm - so big I dont know the boundaries - with less than 10 people because of all the automation. It's pretty impressive to a non-farmer like me.
  - echelon_musk 3y ago
    My parents flew me to NZ as a 3 month old baby to show to my aunt. They would remark about how the airport was little more than a corrugated iron hut at the time. I love NZ deeply and when I visited again later in life parts of the islands gave me the feeling that it was still a frontier.
    - lostlogin 3y ago
      > They would remark about how the airport was little more than a corrugated iron hut at the time. It hasn’t got any better. https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018928627/auckland-airport-processes-need-attention-helen-clark https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2...
      - malux85 3y ago
        I guess it's all about perspective. I was born kiwi and grew up here until I was 24, then. I spent 10 years travelling, I lived in Spain, France, UK, Germany, Austria, Turkey, Dubai, LA, each for 8months - 1 year, and visited all the countries surrounding each. I've seen a lot of east european poverty and watched covid induced unemployment convert entire districts of cities into violent crime pits. When I came back to NZ I found New Zealanders complaining about such trivial things quite sad. New Zealand isn't perfect, but here, in the great scheme of things, we have it good.
- mkl 3y ago
  > It was an untouched bird paradise. Not quite entirely birds, but no land mammals except tiny bats. Humans made their mark pretty quickly and destructively. As a New Zealander, this to me is one of the saddest pages on the internet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Zealand_species_extinct_in_the_Holocene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Zealand_species_ex...
  - calderknight 3y ago
    a few million years ago there were land mammals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Bathans_mammal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Bathans_mammal
- crowcroft 3y ago
  As a New Zealander that travels a bit, even with modern technology I can say that it's bloody hard to get to and from NZ (read: it's close to nothing). Incredibly impressive that people were able to find NZ on boats. I can hardly navigate a few streets without GPS.
  - thaumasiotes 3y ago
    > Incredibly impressive that people were able to find NZ on boats. I can hardly navigate a few streets without GPS. Odds are you're terrible at speaking Lao, but do you find it impressive that other people can?
    - crowcroft 3y ago
      We all have our own gifts.
- thaumasiotes 3y ago
  > Fascinating to think that only hundreds of years ago there was an entirely uninhabited country. There wasn't; there's no such thing as an uninhabited "country", since countries are political entities. There's lots of uninhabited land; the amount of uninhabited land in the United States alone will be many times the size of all of New Zealand.
toastal 3y ago
How does a news site operate without plaintext? The body element is entirely empty. Is there no need for SEO or accessibility? At some point last decade the text-only version of the BBC was discontinued, but instead you can only compare to the likes of the NPR Text-Only Version https://text.npr.org https://text.npr.org.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
mkl 3y ago
Auckland is built atop a massive volcano field. 1.5 million people, on top of and surrounded by dozens of volcanos, and the volcano field is not extinct... Here's a great article about it: https://www.nzgeo.com/stories/the-fire-beneath-us/ https://www.nzgeo.com/stories/the-fire-beneath-us/ Check out the maps in this Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auckland_volcanic_field https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auckland_volcanic_field
- sitharus 3y ago
  Yeah but it hasn’t erupted in ages, she’ll be right. As an Auckland resident we tend not to think if it much, except when walking around because the city is entirely built in hills.
  - promiseofbeans 3y ago
    In Wellington we still have the hills, but no awesome volcanoes :(
- fanf2 3y ago
  Almost as terrifying as Naples https://www.bbc.co.uk/future/article/20240321-the-risk-of-volcano-eruption-in-naples-vesuvius-campi-flegrei https://www.bbc.co.uk/future/article/20240321-the-risk-of-vo...
  - lostlogin 3y ago
    The Romans and Chinese noticed when Taupo went off last time, so there isn’t much point evacuating, you’re dead. The scale of that eruption was just incredible. “The eruption ejected some 45–105 km3 (11–25 cu mi) of bulk tephra, of which just over 30 km3 (7.2 cu mi) was ejected in approximately 6–7 minutes… The main extremely violent pyroclastic flow travelled at close to the speed of sound and devastated the surrounding area, climbing over 1,500 m (4,900 ft) to overtop the nearby Kaimanawa Ranges and Mount Tongariro, and covering the land within 80 km (50 mi) with ignimbrite… There were massive changes in the landscape for 40 km (25 mi) around with all life sterilised and prior landforms evened out.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatepe_eruption https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatepe_eruption
skissane 3y ago
> The longest of those in Auckland run up to 290m (957ft); in the US, that figure is closer to 4km (2.5 miles), with Ape Cave at the Gifford National Park in Washington the longest continuous tube in North America. If we are comparing lava tubes, the longest in Australia is the Bayliss Cave at Undara, Queensland, at 1300 metres long. Kazumura Cave in Hawaii is a lava tube over 65 km long, but that is including human-dug tunnels through collapsed sections. Working out what is the longest lava tube in the world not counting collapses is a bit trucky; Kazumura is near the top of the list (at around 11 km for longest uncollapsed section) but Bilemot Gul on South Korea’s Jeju island apparently beats it. [0] [0] Per http://www.vulcanospeleology.org/sym03/ISV3x15.pdf http://www.vulcanospeleology.org/sym03/ISV3x15.pdf but that’s a 1980s source so may be outdated
grumpymetalguy 3y ago
Maurice Gee wrote a great kid's sci-fi novel around the tunnels in 1979 called Under the Mountain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under_the_Mountain_(novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under_the_Mountain_(novel), which was a good read back in the day...
- phyalow 3y ago
  Just wanted to say, I adore Maurice Gee, "The Halfmen of O" left quite the impression on me as a child. Great quintessential New Zealand sci-fi novels from a fantastic mind.
  - grumpymetalguy 3y ago
    Yeah, that was another great one too. He always struck me as being well-known in NZ, but less so outside it, which felt like a real shame.
- at_a_remove 3y ago
  And the children's series, which made its way to the United States during Nickelodeon's bundle series, The Third Eye.
msravi 3y ago
> If someone had this under their land, that would be the end of a basement, the end of a swimming pool Or, they could end up with a really cool basement/swimming pool!
0phiuchus 3y ago
[flagged]
mcswell 3y ago
Underground caves, like underground tunnels, are so much more interesting than the above-ground ones.
latchkey 3y ago
> "Using them today for profane reasons would be the same as going into a church and having a party – it's not appropriate," Paterson says. What is with the moralism? I used to go to some brilliant parties (raves) at a church in San Francisco. Sometimes I really miss those mid/late 90's...
- keepamovin 3y ago
  I feel you're probably injecting that in there haha! :) I think they're just saying there's sacred spaces and others and there's different uses for each. Quiet contemplation versus parties: different :) hahahaha :) This church rave in the 90s (I too miss that time a bit! Where I grew up it was 61 regent st haha! :)), was it an active church or a disused one, or don't know? Haha! :)
- dzhiurgis 3y ago
  That's respect for Maori culture. Which pretty lame for country so pragmatic and atheistic. Maori science [0] is being reintroduced in schools too. And while it's not some woowoo science it still feels forced, almost like a brand for big corps. There's 0% Maori culture in my day to day life unless it's some business trying to be hip (see: AirNZ cabin safety videos). 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mātauranga_Māori https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mātauranga_Māori
  - troglodyte_nah 3y ago
    Clearly you don't work in the Government or Education sector (but I repeat myself). It's possible we're on a trajectory to become the South Africa of the south.
  - peterashford 3y ago
    I find it baffling that anyone would describe having respect for their indigenous culture as "lame"
    - dzhiurgis 3y ago
      Whats the word would you use? Baffling maybe? I've outlined reasons why it's lame. What are yours for calling me out?

74 points by keepamovin 3y ago

Off topic but the thing that I find most interesting about New Zealand is that there were no humans at all there until the 1400's. It was an untouched bird paradise. Fascinating to think that only hundreds of years ago there was an entirely uninhabited country.

keepamovin 3y ago
Yeah, that is fascinating. good point. Is it impossible that there were humans there a loooong time before who then left/died out? Would be interesting too haha :)
- input_sh 3y ago
  No, because they'd leave some evidence behind. In general, it is agreed upon that Kupe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kupe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kupe) was the first one to discover it, shortly before Mount Tarawera (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Tarawera https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Tarawera) errupted in 1312 (give or take), and more permanent settlements appeared some (<10) years later. None of this is 100% confirmed of course, but it's a more straightforward origin story than most places.
- mkl 3y ago
  No, there would be evidence. It was really hard to get to, as it required a significant amount of seafaring technology and knowledge. Check out the dates on this map: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austronesian_peoples#/media/File:Chronological_dispersal_of_Austronesian_people_across_the_Pacific.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austronesian_peoples#/media/Fi...
082349872349872 3y ago
There was rapid cultural evolution among the Māori as well; consider the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pā#Gunfighter_pā https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pā#Gunfighter_pā . I don't know if they came up with bastions independently or swiped them from the Empire, but, having been used to full and frank discussions among themselves, they certainly adjusted quickly to artillery. > The British used to think the bayonet was the most lethal of all hand to hand combat weapons, till they came across our warriors, who fought with the Taiaha. You think your fist is your weapon? When I have taught you, your mind will be. —??B
malux85 3y ago
Kiwi here - Here's something cool: My grandparents (both still alive but over 100) grandparents were among the first settlers here in NZ. Not the very first to land, a few decades after that, but early enough that they had to build a single room shelter out of clay and mud, and hunt in nature for food. Now, as I sit on the 20th floor in an air conditioned flat with gigabit ethernet, I overlook the city, and marvel about how quickly a country can be built up from nothing. One other thing that is interesting, my grandparents were farmers their whole lives and only recently retired, when they started farming they were still using horses, and now their farm has computer controlled, almost entirely automated combine harvestors, they themselves often tell us they cant believe the rate at which farming automation advanced - they manage an enormous farm - so big I dont know the boundaries - with less than 10 people because of all the automation. It's pretty impressive to a non-farmer like me.
- echelon_musk 3y ago
  My parents flew me to NZ as a 3 month old baby to show to my aunt. They would remark about how the airport was little more than a corrugated iron hut at the time. I love NZ deeply and when I visited again later in life parts of the islands gave me the feeling that it was still a frontier.
  - lostlogin 3y ago
    > They would remark about how the airport was little more than a corrugated iron hut at the time. It hasn’t got any better. https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018928627/auckland-airport-processes-need-attention-helen-clark https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2...
    - malux85 3y ago
      I guess it's all about perspective. I was born kiwi and grew up here until I was 24, then. I spent 10 years travelling, I lived in Spain, France, UK, Germany, Austria, Turkey, Dubai, LA, each for 8months - 1 year, and visited all the countries surrounding each. I've seen a lot of east european poverty and watched covid induced unemployment convert entire districts of cities into violent crime pits. When I came back to NZ I found New Zealanders complaining about such trivial things quite sad. New Zealand isn't perfect, but here, in the great scheme of things, we have it good.
mkl 3y ago
> It was an untouched bird paradise. Not quite entirely birds, but no land mammals except tiny bats. Humans made their mark pretty quickly and destructively. As a New Zealander, this to me is one of the saddest pages on the internet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Zealand_species_extinct_in_the_Holocene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Zealand_species_ex...
- calderknight 3y ago
  a few million years ago there were land mammals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Bathans_mammal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Bathans_mammal
crowcroft 3y ago
As a New Zealander that travels a bit, even with modern technology I can say that it's bloody hard to get to and from NZ (read: it's close to nothing). Incredibly impressive that people were able to find NZ on boats. I can hardly navigate a few streets without GPS.
- thaumasiotes 3y ago
  > Incredibly impressive that people were able to find NZ on boats. I can hardly navigate a few streets without GPS. Odds are you're terrible at speaking Lao, but do you find it impressive that other people can?
  - crowcroft 3y ago
    We all have our own gifts.
thaumasiotes 3y ago
> Fascinating to think that only hundreds of years ago there was an entirely uninhabited country. There wasn't; there's no such thing as an uninhabited "country", since countries are political entities. There's lots of uninhabited land; the amount of uninhabited land in the United States alone will be many times the size of all of New Zealand.

toastal 3y ago

How does a news site operate without plaintext? The body element is entirely empty. Is there no need for SEO or accessibility? At some point last decade the text-only version of the BBC was discontinued, but instead you can only compare to the likes of the NPR Text-Only Version https://text.npr.org https://text.npr.org.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

mkl 3y ago

Auckland is built atop a massive volcano field. 1.5 million people, on top of and surrounded by dozens of volcanos, and the volcano field is not extinct... Here's a great article about it: https://www.nzgeo.com/stories/the-fire-beneath-us/ https://www.nzgeo.com/stories/the-fire-beneath-us/ Check out the maps in this Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auckland_volcanic_field https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auckland_volcanic_field

sitharus 3y ago
Yeah but it hasn’t erupted in ages, she’ll be right. As an Auckland resident we tend not to think if it much, except when walking around because the city is entirely built in hills.
- promiseofbeans 3y ago
  In Wellington we still have the hills, but no awesome volcanoes :(
fanf2 3y ago
Almost as terrifying as Naples https://www.bbc.co.uk/future/article/20240321-the-risk-of-volcano-eruption-in-naples-vesuvius-campi-flegrei https://www.bbc.co.uk/future/article/20240321-the-risk-of-vo...
- lostlogin 3y ago
  The Romans and Chinese noticed when Taupo went off last time, so there isn’t much point evacuating, you’re dead. The scale of that eruption was just incredible. “The eruption ejected some 45–105 km3 (11–25 cu mi) of bulk tephra, of which just over 30 km3 (7.2 cu mi) was ejected in approximately 6–7 minutes… The main extremely violent pyroclastic flow travelled at close to the speed of sound and devastated the surrounding area, climbing over 1,500 m (4,900 ft) to overtop the nearby Kaimanawa Ranges and Mount Tongariro, and covering the land within 80 km (50 mi) with ignimbrite… There were massive changes in the landscape for 40 km (25 mi) around with all life sterilised and prior landforms evened out.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatepe_eruption https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatepe_eruption

skissane 3y ago

> The longest of those in Auckland run up to 290m (957ft); in the US, that figure is closer to 4km (2.5 miles), with Ape Cave at the Gifford National Park in Washington the longest continuous tube in North America. If we are comparing lava tubes, the longest in Australia is the Bayliss Cave at Undara, Queensland, at 1300 metres long. Kazumura Cave in Hawaii is a lava tube over 65 km long, but that is including human-dug tunnels through collapsed sections. Working out what is the longest lava tube in the world not counting collapses is a bit trucky; Kazumura is near the top of the list (at around 11 km for longest uncollapsed section) but Bilemot Gul on South Korea’s Jeju island apparently beats it. [0] [0] Per http://www.vulcanospeleology.org/sym03/ISV3x15.pdf http://www.vulcanospeleology.org/sym03/ISV3x15.pdf but that’s a 1980s source so may be outdated

grumpymetalguy 3y ago

Maurice Gee wrote a great kid's sci-fi novel around the tunnels in 1979 called Under the Mountain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under_the_Mountain_(novel) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under_the_Mountain_(novel), which was a good read back in the day...

phyalow 3y ago
Just wanted to say, I adore Maurice Gee, "The Halfmen of O" left quite the impression on me as a child. Great quintessential New Zealand sci-fi novels from a fantastic mind.
- grumpymetalguy 3y ago
  Yeah, that was another great one too. He always struck me as being well-known in NZ, but less so outside it, which felt like a real shame.
at_a_remove 3y ago
And the children's series, which made its way to the United States during Nickelodeon's bundle series, The Third Eye.

msravi 3y ago

> If someone had this under their land, that would be the end of a basement, the end of a swimming pool Or, they could end up with a really cool basement/swimming pool!

0phiuchus 3y ago

[flagged]

mcswell 3y ago

Underground caves, like underground tunnels, are so much more interesting than the above-ground ones.

latchkey 3y ago

> "Using them today for profane reasons would be the same as going into a church and having a party – it's not appropriate," Paterson says. What is with the moralism? I used to go to some brilliant parties (raves) at a church in San Francisco. Sometimes I really miss those mid/late 90's...

keepamovin 3y ago
I feel you're probably injecting that in there haha! :) I think they're just saying there's sacred spaces and others and there's different uses for each. Quiet contemplation versus parties: different :) hahahaha :) This church rave in the 90s (I too miss that time a bit! Where I grew up it was 61 regent st haha! :)), was it an active church or a disused one, or don't know? Haha! :)
dzhiurgis 3y ago
That's respect for Maori culture. Which pretty lame for country so pragmatic and atheistic. Maori science [0] is being reintroduced in schools too. And while it's not some woowoo science it still feels forced, almost like a brand for big corps. There's 0% Maori culture in my day to day life unless it's some business trying to be hip (see: AirNZ cabin safety videos). 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mātauranga_Māori https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mātauranga_Māori
- troglodyte_nah 3y ago
  Clearly you don't work in the Government or Education sector (but I repeat myself). It's possible we're on a trajectory to become the South Africa of the south.
- peterashford 3y ago
  I find it baffling that anyone would describe having respect for their indigenous culture as "lame"
  - dzhiurgis 3y ago
    Whats the word would you use? Baffling maybe? I've outlined reasons why it's lame. What are yours for calling me out?