5 ms·

It's getting more and more ridiculous like controlling what software your computer can have installed. Pretty sure some even require TPM and that you are bootin

It's getting more and more ridiculous like controlling what software your computer can have installed. Pretty sure some even require TPM and that you are booting into a "trusted environment". The only one who suffers is the genuine gamer as cheaters find their way around, either by directly reading and writing from/to the RAM chip directly or using another PC running machine vision and feeding inputs as a emulated USB hid devices. I don't think cheating is something that can be solved by a technology in FPS games, you can do some server side checks but it gets really difficult unless you stream the whole game as a video feed from a remote server. Cheating is a social issue, and we had working solution for it.. dedicated community servers which were community moderated.

booi 2y ago
Hold up, there is cheating tech that uses machine vision and hid inputs?! That’s hardcore. Sad they couldn’t put that talent to something like self driving…
- wlesieutre 2y ago
  https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/07/cheat-maker-brags-of-computer-vision-auto-aim-that-works-on-any-game/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/07/cheat-maker-brags-of-...
- pushedx 2y ago
  This is an excellent mini documentary explaining the various techniques to avoid kernel level anti-cheat, including pre-boot EFI-based cheats, PCIe DMA sniffing, video over serial auto clickers, and the state of the art motion detection over streaming video with MITM USB host controller. https://youtu.be/RwzIq04vd0M https://youtu.be/RwzIq04vd0M
  - newzisforsukas 2y ago
    I wonder how useful injecting subperceptual noise is in combating the CV approach
    - pushedx 2y ago
      Likely ineffective as the techniques involve compression of the input data and general purpose motion detection.
- m3galinux 2y ago
  Oh that's just the start of it. I recently learned there are cheating methods that use sniffing and live modification of system RAM via PCI Express DMA transfers. As usual, physical access to hardware trumps all.
- Der_Einzige 2y ago
  Yup. AI hacks are now the norm. They’re Pretty much undetectable too. I use aimmy for shooters, which amusingly claims it’s an accessibility app for the physically disabled. https://github.com/Babyhamsta/Aimmy https://github.com/Babyhamsta/Aimmy I love it because suddenly I can actually compete with the sweatlords who spend every waking moment optimizing their play. I don’t have time for that shit, but I want to have fun. Downvote away, but game cheating is subversive in the best way possible, and the haters can simply deal with it. I think it’s straight up good for society as it encourages a technological race to the top from others who want to stay competitive. There’s more value in learning how to cheat in a game with respect to learning about computers than there is in playing legitimately. Time spent getting good at a random video game is simply a waste of our precious limited lifespans. I argue we should legalize doping in sports too. Daniel tosh argued for this famously, pointing out that a bunch of roided beefcakes playing sports is far more entertaining for the average viewer since it improves the quality of play.
  - pseudo0 2y ago
    > Aimmy was designed for Gamers who are at a severe disadvantage over normal gamers. > This includes but is not limited to: > - Gamers who are mentally challenged Hope it was worth your dignity. Seriously though, the whole point of ranked matchmaking is to give you a fair game with people who are similar in skill. If you compete without cheating, you will get matched up with other casual players instead of "sweatlords".
    - Der_Einzige 2y ago
      I hope every person who’s a victim of my AI hacks reacts at least as poorly as you do. The salt, rage, anger, etc of gamers is the funniest stuff ever. A major streamer, pchooly, is known for extreme gamer rage. https://youtu.be/h2ZZh3s2OPA?feature=shared https://youtu.be/h2ZZh3s2OPA?feature=shared I like to think that I’ve caused similar poor reactions from upset players.
      - pseudo0 2y ago
        What, with mild sarcasm? The description of the tool is hilarious. I just legitimately don't see the appeal. I installed a CoD aimbot way back when, and it just ruined the experience. There is no challenge or satisfaction in winning when it's the tool doing all the work.
ryandrake 2y ago
It's ridiculous that gamers are willing to accept installing a rootkit in order to play a game. And it's ridiculous that they even defend the practice by crying about cheaters. And it's ridiculous that game developers reach for rootkits instead of securing their own games better against cheating and/or designing their games in such a way that computer-assistance gives no benefit. It's just ridiculous all the way down.
- add-sub-mul-div 2y ago
  > designing their games in such a way that computer-assistance gives no benefit. Come on man, think this one through a little better.
  - xeonmc 2y ago
    Have you ever played Rocket League?
- NoPicklez 2y ago
  It's ridiculous that you think developers aren't doing other things apart from kernel level anti-cheat to secure their games. There has been an enormous amount of engineering around combatting cheaters. Why doesn't Microsoft just build a more secure operating system than reaching for Microsoft Defender and other kernel level protection mechanisms. Well because they are but they're not good enough which is exactly the point. Gamers who use their PC to play games, will install what they can to play such games its a simple as that. Not everyone has the same tolerance to risk.
drdaeman 2y ago
> Cheating is a social issue This is very true. Highly unpopular opinion: cheating is a social issue and the only future-proof long-term solution is… acceptance and adaptation. Technology is here to stay. A machine will always outperform unaided humans at some tasks. Don’t make that the point of the competition. The genie is out of the bottle, and save for an apocalyptic event, it won’t ever go back. Do the contrary. Give every player a state-of-art machine copilot, and let them bring their own improvements to it. This is the only way to make the field truly level again. If your game mechanics is ruined… I’m sorry, but then that - probably - wasn’t a sustainable idea. People who are called “cheaters” are different. Some exploit bugs and just want to watch the world burn - no sympathy for those folks, fuck them. Some want to trample on everyone without doing anything - no competition here, I don’t get those people (can’t say “fuck them” though - maybe it’s some kind of a trauma they have, so they need that feeling of fake “victory”?). But some want to win, but feel that cannot do so with their bare hands and eyes. So they do what humanity always did - improve by using technology. If they genuinely want to become better - how about we just don’t hate them for this? Heck, the desire to improve through tech is the very foundation of this civilization. (Yes, even if one just buys a cheat program - it still makes sense in any society that had invented money.) Just rank such players accordingly to their machine-assisted skill. Here, problem solved, and as a bonus you’ll get your next OpenAI Five paper in no time. I know it’s very controversial. I know some game genres won’t survive (not complex games like LoL or Dota, though). Most likely a lot of MMOs (and most mobile casino junk) will suffer, as a lot of their mechanics is based on boring grind (that’s how they earn money, hah). I know the industry is doing the exact opposite, trying to shove the issue under the rug with bans and memeing super hard that “cheaters” (a derogatory term) are vile scum. And I can see why people are buying it - if the developers say it’s against the rules, no surprise a slightest trace of automation (like a programmable mouse) feels unfair. Reading some Reddit threads I sometimes wonder how those people don’t say that wearing glasses is cheating too. I see that as a conservative approach, and - as anything that merely tries to uphold the status quo - I honestly believe it’s not gonna work in the long term. No trolling, I honestly believe in what I wrote. And, no, I don’t “cheat” (although I’ve experimented with some basic game hacking, of course - because reverse engineering is fun) And, uh, yes, I think the same should apply to non-e-sports. The logic is a bit different, of course. But the value of medical breakthroughs drastically overweights the fictional “purity” in my perception of values. I don’t really care if some athlete can do something (doubly so because I don’t have a nationality I can root for; personal achievements are cool but there’s zero benefit for me or society besides the economic value of the competition event), but if some athlete can do twice as much because of some tech (drug or implant), that may be beneficial for me as well. And yes, I’ve seen that standup/meme about dope Olympics - it’s fun but it doesn’t really invalidate my views.

booi 2y ago

Hold up, there is cheating tech that uses machine vision and hid inputs?! That’s hardcore. Sad they couldn’t put that talent to something like self driving…

wlesieutre 2y ago
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/07/cheat-maker-brags-of-computer-vision-auto-aim-that-works-on-any-game/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/07/cheat-maker-brags-of-...
pushedx 2y ago
This is an excellent mini documentary explaining the various techniques to avoid kernel level anti-cheat, including pre-boot EFI-based cheats, PCIe DMA sniffing, video over serial auto clickers, and the state of the art motion detection over streaming video with MITM USB host controller. https://youtu.be/RwzIq04vd0M https://youtu.be/RwzIq04vd0M
- newzisforsukas 2y ago
  I wonder how useful injecting subperceptual noise is in combating the CV approach
  - pushedx 2y ago
    Likely ineffective as the techniques involve compression of the input data and general purpose motion detection.
m3galinux 2y ago
Oh that's just the start of it. I recently learned there are cheating methods that use sniffing and live modification of system RAM via PCI Express DMA transfers. As usual, physical access to hardware trumps all.
Der_Einzige 2y ago
Yup. AI hacks are now the norm. They’re Pretty much undetectable too. I use aimmy for shooters, which amusingly claims it’s an accessibility app for the physically disabled. https://github.com/Babyhamsta/Aimmy https://github.com/Babyhamsta/Aimmy I love it because suddenly I can actually compete with the sweatlords who spend every waking moment optimizing their play. I don’t have time for that shit, but I want to have fun. Downvote away, but game cheating is subversive in the best way possible, and the haters can simply deal with it. I think it’s straight up good for society as it encourages a technological race to the top from others who want to stay competitive. There’s more value in learning how to cheat in a game with respect to learning about computers than there is in playing legitimately. Time spent getting good at a random video game is simply a waste of our precious limited lifespans. I argue we should legalize doping in sports too. Daniel tosh argued for this famously, pointing out that a bunch of roided beefcakes playing sports is far more entertaining for the average viewer since it improves the quality of play.
- pseudo0 2y ago
  > Aimmy was designed for Gamers who are at a severe disadvantage over normal gamers. > This includes but is not limited to: > - Gamers who are mentally challenged Hope it was worth your dignity. Seriously though, the whole point of ranked matchmaking is to give you a fair game with people who are similar in skill. If you compete without cheating, you will get matched up with other casual players instead of "sweatlords".
  - Der_Einzige 2y ago
    I hope every person who’s a victim of my AI hacks reacts at least as poorly as you do. The salt, rage, anger, etc of gamers is the funniest stuff ever. A major streamer, pchooly, is known for extreme gamer rage. https://youtu.be/h2ZZh3s2OPA?feature=shared https://youtu.be/h2ZZh3s2OPA?feature=shared I like to think that I’ve caused similar poor reactions from upset players.
    - pseudo0 2y ago
      What, with mild sarcasm? The description of the tool is hilarious. I just legitimately don't see the appeal. I installed a CoD aimbot way back when, and it just ruined the experience. There is no challenge or satisfaction in winning when it's the tool doing all the work.

ryandrake 2y ago

It's ridiculous that gamers are willing to accept installing a rootkit in order to play a game. And it's ridiculous that they even defend the practice by crying about cheaters. And it's ridiculous that game developers reach for rootkits instead of securing their own games better against cheating and/or designing their games in such a way that computer-assistance gives no benefit. It's just ridiculous all the way down.

add-sub-mul-div 2y ago
> designing their games in such a way that computer-assistance gives no benefit. Come on man, think this one through a little better.
- xeonmc 2y ago
  Have you ever played Rocket League?
NoPicklez 2y ago
It's ridiculous that you think developers aren't doing other things apart from kernel level anti-cheat to secure their games. There has been an enormous amount of engineering around combatting cheaters. Why doesn't Microsoft just build a more secure operating system than reaching for Microsoft Defender and other kernel level protection mechanisms. Well because they are but they're not good enough which is exactly the point. Gamers who use their PC to play games, will install what they can to play such games its a simple as that. Not everyone has the same tolerance to risk.

drdaeman 2y ago

> Cheating is a social issue This is very true. Highly unpopular opinion: cheating is a social issue and the only future-proof long-term solution is… acceptance and adaptation. Technology is here to stay. A machine will always outperform unaided humans at some tasks. Don’t make that the point of the competition. The genie is out of the bottle, and save for an apocalyptic event, it won’t ever go back. Do the contrary. Give every player a state-of-art machine copilot, and let them bring their own improvements to it. This is the only way to make the field truly level again. If your game mechanics is ruined… I’m sorry, but then that - probably - wasn’t a sustainable idea. People who are called “cheaters” are different. Some exploit bugs and just want to watch the world burn - no sympathy for those folks, fuck them. Some want to trample on everyone without doing anything - no competition here, I don’t get those people (can’t say “fuck them” though - maybe it’s some kind of a trauma they have, so they need that feeling of fake “victory”?). But some want to win, but feel that cannot do so with their bare hands and eyes. So they do what humanity always did - improve by using technology. If they genuinely want to become better - how about we just don’t hate them for this? Heck, the desire to improve through tech is the very foundation of this civilization. (Yes, even if one just buys a cheat program - it still makes sense in any society that had invented money.) Just rank such players accordingly to their machine-assisted skill. Here, problem solved, and as a bonus you’ll get your next OpenAI Five paper in no time. I know it’s very controversial. I know some game genres won’t survive (not complex games like LoL or Dota, though). Most likely a lot of MMOs (and most mobile casino junk) will suffer, as a lot of their mechanics is based on boring grind (that’s how they earn money, hah). I know the industry is doing the exact opposite, trying to shove the issue under the rug with bans and memeing super hard that “cheaters” (a derogatory term) are vile scum. And I can see why people are buying it - if the developers say it’s against the rules, no surprise a slightest trace of automation (like a programmable mouse) feels unfair. Reading some Reddit threads I sometimes wonder how those people don’t say that wearing glasses is cheating too. I see that as a conservative approach, and - as anything that merely tries to uphold the status quo - I honestly believe it’s not gonna work in the long term. No trolling, I honestly believe in what I wrote. And, no, I don’t “cheat” (although I’ve experimented with some basic game hacking, of course - because reverse engineering is fun) And, uh, yes, I think the same should apply to non-e-sports. The logic is a bit different, of course. But the value of medical breakthroughs drastically overweights the fictional “purity” in my perception of values. I don’t really care if some athlete can do something (doubly so because I don’t have a nationality I can root for; personal achievements are cool but there’s zero benefit for me or society besides the economic value of the competition event), but if some athlete can do twice as much because of some tech (drug or implant), that may be beneficial for me as well. And yes, I’ve seen that standup/meme about dope Olympics - it’s fun but it doesn’t really invalidate my views.