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Here’s where it gets interesting — GCJ-02 is based on WGS-84, but with a deliberate obfuscation algorithm applied to it. The effect of this is that there are ra

Here’s where it gets interesting — GCJ-02 is based on WGS-84, but with a deliberate obfuscation algorithm applied to it. The effect of this is that there are random offsets added to both latitude and longitude, ranging from as little as 50m to as much as 500m. Holy shit. I can't believe they created an adversarial mapping standard. That is insane. It really paints a picture of their worldview I think. The oppressed "middle kingdom" under siege. Wow, what it must be like to have that view that everyone else is against you, and you have to bulwark yourself at every opportunity. Yet somehow, balance that with the "historical trend of opening up". It's a scary attitude, and must be scary to try to implement it. I never saw China like that before. This 1 article changes my mind about a few things. Even the map math is preparing for war! I kind of feel sorry for them. It's been like 70-some years but their war is not complete. And scary for the world: I hope they don't have to seek a cathartic resolution of whatever internal conflict they have by projecting it externally. I don't see them like that, but details like this add support to that idea, I think. I had no idea maps were like this before today.... :( Tho reading some other comments, it seems it's not so hard to undo this...maybe this is not really about war or such attitude tho...but then why? Why add that specialness to make it that much harder for people ? That in itself could speak volumes. It's a map, it's kind of representative of a national idea. How can you be for "opening up" but you make your maps different to everybody itself, and not necessarily better! Hahaha :) Maybe I'm just misunderstanding it.. haha :)

ronsor 3y ago
The standard has been reverse engineered before: https://github.com/googollee/eviltransform https://github.com/googollee/eviltransform I honestly don't know why companies simply don't implement it. It's not really "secret" -- or if it is, it's an "open secret".
- keepamovin 3y ago
  Oh, I thought it was less like a Playstation DRM and more like something that would be harder to do. Tho I guess that makes sense. Probably companies don't want to run afoul of Chinese law which is fair.
kccqzy 3y ago
> Wow, what it must be like to have that view that everyone else is against you This is true. Anti-Chinese sentiment right now is high worldwide. And had been high since the 19th century. Look up Chinese Exclusion Act.
- keepamovin 3y ago
  > This is true. Anti-Chinese sentiment right now is high worldwide. And had been high since the 19th century. Look up Chinese Exclusion Act. I know the Act, and it's awful. But I don't think it's "true". At least we can agree that Chinese seem to have a sense that the world is "against" them. I'm sure it seems it's true if you're Chinese, but for a country that literally describes anyone "non Chinese" as "outsider", and thinks that's entirely normal, I think it's more likely the sense of "othering" is self-created. Perhaps the sense of "world against us" is balanced by, and created by, a Chinese sense that they are "against" others and need to be? Supported by a particularly Chinese sense of manifest destiny where "rejuvenation" means reestablishing what they see as their rightful place of "specialness" and "centralness" in the world? Accelerated recently by the central government's focus on "external spies" and preparing for "struggle"? Like on a sidewalk, if you need to be "central" don't you also need to push "others" aside? :) I get you need to then play the fake victim and pretend others started it, but if you're starting with "othering", and "centralness" and "specialness", isn't it you who's responsible? But just not bold enough to own it yet, explicitly? So need to pretend, "Oh it's other people doing this, therefore we're doing it." But what if it's actually self-generated, this desire for "centralness" and the concomitant "othering" of "non Chinese?" I think that's likely. Whether it's a historical reaction or a persistent characteristic, I'm not sure, but I don't think it matters. The fruits right now are the same. Although, I think it's likely that it is a persistent idea: remember that China was the predominant economy worldwide for at least 1000 years over a span that included the "Dark Ages" for the West. China not being the most developed is a recent thing. See Ian Morris' books for analysis if interested :) So it would make sense if Chinese now hold onto a forgotten dream of being more great than everyone else, and are starting to act like it. In fact, "feel it" to be their identity in the world, and the "rejuvenation" is sending them back to that? :) I think it's likely. What do you think? It's culturally highly xenophobic and insular, despite being globally mercantile. I don't think it's likely that people are "against" Chinese as much as Chinese are against "outsiders" and the effects that then creates, both internally and on the world stage. Sad tho definitely! :)
CMCDragonkai 3y ago
I believe this is due to communist forces being under siege since the beginning of the ideology. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_mentality https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_mentality See how other nations dealt with the Russian revolution, and subsequently. From CCP's perspective it has been surrounded by enemies from even before the founding of the PRC. Remember violence begets violence.
Intralexical 3y ago
> Tho reading some other comments, it seems it's not so hard to undo this...maybe this is not really about war or such attitude tho...but then why? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictions_on_geographic_data_in_China#GCJ-02 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictions_on_geographic_dat... > There is a licence fee associated with using this mandatory algorithm in China. Tax dollars? And appeasing the bureaucracy? Also, looking at the citation note, I get the impression that a Mr. Li Chengming probably got closer to his next promotion by putting his name on it. It's really not that big a deal either, if you're an autocracy where controlling all access to accurate information is seen as the natural, normal, default thing to do. "Preparing for war", perhaps you could call it, but as much against their own people. Attributing to intention that which can be adequately explained by dysfunction?
- actionfromafar 3y ago
  The problem is, such power structures tend to find their purpose eventually.
- keepamovin 3y ago
  Dysfunction from another point of view could be seen as utlity haha! :)
sakjur 3y ago
It’s a fairly common practice to have a localized geodetic datum defined for a country. WGS84 isn’t necessarily sufficiently accurate for all purposes, continental plates drift, the ellipsoid can be adjusted to local circumstances and so forth. When you want to compare very precise measurements over time, WGS84 is too imprecise. Most of course avoid obfuscating their own maps, it seems like that is a result of 2002 legislation coming out of Beijing. There’s a long history of doing this, civilian Soviet maps often simply omitted a grid. While mapping an adversary is comparatively trivial and cheap today, this sort of thinking wasn’t entirely unreasonable back during the cold war, when maps truly were hard to develop from afar (there’s a brilliant and beautiful book on this subject called “The Red Atlas”). There’s a saying that generals often fight the last war, maybe that’s why China chose to obfuscate their maps well into the satellite and GPS era.
- _xnmw 3y ago
  > mapping an adversary is comparatively trivial and cheap today Sorry what? Mapping is not anything close to trivial or cheap, even today. Apple took 4 years just to build a map of the SF Bay Area. Nor is it fixed or rapid, in an active war situation, presumably new targets would be built and moved quickly.
- keepamovin 3y ago
  Old habits die hard I guess. Haha!
jampekka 3y ago
Given e.g. the USA military buildup in the South China sea, perhaps the paranoia isn't entirely unfounded?
- urbandw311er 3y ago
  Are you just going to ignore the fact that China has been illegally building dozens if not hundreds of military bases there in international waters and is now trying to claim that it owns this territory?
  - jampekka 3y ago
    That probably makes the paranoia even more founded? Especially when their (perceived) adversary has the habit of regularly starting illegal wars.
    - GordonS 3y ago
      And let's not forget that the US recently stationed troops on a tiny Taiwanese island that's less than ten miles from the Chinese mainland. And at a time when the US is sabre-rattling over Taiwan, and is about to give Taiwan billions of dollars for "defence". And elsewhere in the world, the US almost seems to be trying to start WWIII. In the current climate, being paranoid is the sensible option.
      - keepamovin 3y ago
        I think in geopolitics it's probably always sensible to be a little paranoid...or have some people whose job that is. But I think the Kinmen thing is less big than it seems. It's already a militarized Taiwan island, and Taiwan and China are officially "still at war", so arguably the more provocative move is Taiwanese military presence there. A handful of US troops is not a significant deployment, and I think there's many ways that US and Chinese militaries actually collaborate and communicate, and one of these is (most likely) through the plausibly deniable route of Taiwan.

ronsor 3y ago

The standard has been reverse engineered before: https://github.com/googollee/eviltransform https://github.com/googollee/eviltransform I honestly don't know why companies simply don't implement it. It's not really "secret" -- or if it is, it's an "open secret".

keepamovin 3y ago
Oh, I thought it was less like a Playstation DRM and more like something that would be harder to do. Tho I guess that makes sense. Probably companies don't want to run afoul of Chinese law which is fair.

kccqzy 3y ago

> Wow, what it must be like to have that view that everyone else is against you This is true. Anti-Chinese sentiment right now is high worldwide. And had been high since the 19th century. Look up Chinese Exclusion Act.

keepamovin 3y ago
> This is true. Anti-Chinese sentiment right now is high worldwide. And had been high since the 19th century. Look up Chinese Exclusion Act. I know the Act, and it's awful. But I don't think it's "true". At least we can agree that Chinese seem to have a sense that the world is "against" them. I'm sure it seems it's true if you're Chinese, but for a country that literally describes anyone "non Chinese" as "outsider", and thinks that's entirely normal, I think it's more likely the sense of "othering" is self-created. Perhaps the sense of "world against us" is balanced by, and created by, a Chinese sense that they are "against" others and need to be? Supported by a particularly Chinese sense of manifest destiny where "rejuvenation" means reestablishing what they see as their rightful place of "specialness" and "centralness" in the world? Accelerated recently by the central government's focus on "external spies" and preparing for "struggle"? Like on a sidewalk, if you need to be "central" don't you also need to push "others" aside? :) I get you need to then play the fake victim and pretend others started it, but if you're starting with "othering", and "centralness" and "specialness", isn't it you who's responsible? But just not bold enough to own it yet, explicitly? So need to pretend, "Oh it's other people doing this, therefore we're doing it." But what if it's actually self-generated, this desire for "centralness" and the concomitant "othering" of "non Chinese?" I think that's likely. Whether it's a historical reaction or a persistent characteristic, I'm not sure, but I don't think it matters. The fruits right now are the same. Although, I think it's likely that it is a persistent idea: remember that China was the predominant economy worldwide for at least 1000 years over a span that included the "Dark Ages" for the West. China not being the most developed is a recent thing. See Ian Morris' books for analysis if interested :) So it would make sense if Chinese now hold onto a forgotten dream of being more great than everyone else, and are starting to act like it. In fact, "feel it" to be their identity in the world, and the "rejuvenation" is sending them back to that? :) I think it's likely. What do you think? It's culturally highly xenophobic and insular, despite being globally mercantile. I don't think it's likely that people are "against" Chinese as much as Chinese are against "outsiders" and the effects that then creates, both internally and on the world stage. Sad tho definitely! :)

CMCDragonkai 3y ago

I believe this is due to communist forces being under siege since the beginning of the ideology. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_mentality https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_mentality See how other nations dealt with the Russian revolution, and subsequently. From CCP's perspective it has been surrounded by enemies from even before the founding of the PRC. Remember violence begets violence.

Intralexical 3y ago

> Tho reading some other comments, it seems it's not so hard to undo this...maybe this is not really about war or such attitude tho...but then why? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictions_on_geographic_data_in_China#GCJ-02 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictions_on_geographic_dat... > There is a licence fee associated with using this mandatory algorithm in China. Tax dollars? And appeasing the bureaucracy? Also, looking at the citation note, I get the impression that a Mr. Li Chengming probably got closer to his next promotion by putting his name on it. It's really not that big a deal either, if you're an autocracy where controlling all access to accurate information is seen as the natural, normal, default thing to do. "Preparing for war", perhaps you could call it, but as much against their own people. Attributing to intention that which can be adequately explained by dysfunction?

actionfromafar 3y ago
The problem is, such power structures tend to find their purpose eventually.
keepamovin 3y ago
Dysfunction from another point of view could be seen as utlity haha! :)

sakjur 3y ago

It’s a fairly common practice to have a localized geodetic datum defined for a country. WGS84 isn’t necessarily sufficiently accurate for all purposes, continental plates drift, the ellipsoid can be adjusted to local circumstances and so forth. When you want to compare very precise measurements over time, WGS84 is too imprecise. Most of course avoid obfuscating their own maps, it seems like that is a result of 2002 legislation coming out of Beijing. There’s a long history of doing this, civilian Soviet maps often simply omitted a grid. While mapping an adversary is comparatively trivial and cheap today, this sort of thinking wasn’t entirely unreasonable back during the cold war, when maps truly were hard to develop from afar (there’s a brilliant and beautiful book on this subject called “The Red Atlas”). There’s a saying that generals often fight the last war, maybe that’s why China chose to obfuscate their maps well into the satellite and GPS era.

_xnmw 3y ago
> mapping an adversary is comparatively trivial and cheap today Sorry what? Mapping is not anything close to trivial or cheap, even today. Apple took 4 years just to build a map of the SF Bay Area. Nor is it fixed or rapid, in an active war situation, presumably new targets would be built and moved quickly.
keepamovin 3y ago
Old habits die hard I guess. Haha!

jampekka 3y ago

Given e.g. the USA military buildup in the South China sea, perhaps the paranoia isn't entirely unfounded?

urbandw311er 3y ago
Are you just going to ignore the fact that China has been illegally building dozens if not hundreds of military bases there in international waters and is now trying to claim that it owns this territory?
- jampekka 3y ago
  That probably makes the paranoia even more founded? Especially when their (perceived) adversary has the habit of regularly starting illegal wars.
  - GordonS 3y ago
    And let's not forget that the US recently stationed troops on a tiny Taiwanese island that's less than ten miles from the Chinese mainland. And at a time when the US is sabre-rattling over Taiwan, and is about to give Taiwan billions of dollars for "defence". And elsewhere in the world, the US almost seems to be trying to start WWIII. In the current climate, being paranoid is the sensible option.
    - keepamovin 3y ago
      I think in geopolitics it's probably always sensible to be a little paranoid...or have some people whose job that is. But I think the Kinmen thing is less big than it seems. It's already a militarized Taiwan island, and Taiwan and China are officially "still at war", so arguably the more provocative move is Taiwanese military presence there. A handful of US troops is not a significant deployment, and I think there's many ways that US and Chinese militaries actually collaborate and communicate, and one of these is (most likely) through the plausibly deniable route of Taiwan.