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Sometimes I wonder if Sci-fi has done more harm than good. It provides conclusions that people so badly want to prove true that they will look for any evidence,

Sometimes I wonder if Sci-fi has done more harm than good. It provides conclusions that people so badly want to prove true that they will look for any evidence, however meager, to bolster their arguments. Maybe there was life on Mars, but the main motivation to believe that right now is that many people have read about it in fantasy books. Much more devastatingly, Sci-fi has driven what technology people develop, and often it has led to technology that has made the world worse. Meanwhile, those stories about martians are all metaphors. But people can't distinguish the symbol from the symbolized.

dylan604 2y ago
I don't blame scifi, after all it is just fiction. However, I think the blame could go to poor education and being able to know the difference.
- throw4847285 2y ago
  Yeah fair point. It's not as if Ray Bradbury was the most subtle writer. You have to try to miss the point. Then again, I get it. If somebody offered to build me a Gundam I wouldn't think "Oh no, a symbol for the dehumanization of soldiers on the modern battlefield" I'd think "Is the beam saber included?"
  - dylan604 2y ago
    But at the same time, there's so much real science that has thoroughly been inspired by scifi. Sometimes, you just need to get the imagination juices flowing. "That thingymabob from sciFiTvShow would be really cool to have IRL. What would it take to do that...hold my beer" type thinking has probably given us more than we think. Or maybe I'm just romanticizing the concept too much?
    - jiggawatts 2y ago
      The voice feature of ChatGPT on my phone is basically the Star Trek ship computer. The weather radar app replicates a feature of the Star Trek tricorder that I saw in an episode of TNG. Household robots like in The Jetsons are coming soon, a couple decades at most from today. Etc…
      - mewpmewp2 2y ago
        Do you really need sci fi in either direction to come up with those ideas? I don't read or consume sci fi, but considering the tech available, these just seem like natural things you would try to do.
        dylan604 2y ago
        > considering the tech available, Wow, you're doing some heavy caveating with that comment. Sure, someone today can say that a handheld device to show you the weather in any part of the world seems like a "duh" thing now, but in the 60s when Star Trek came to TV with a tricoder or really a handheld anything was pushing credibility. Computers at the time took up rooms in buildings. Of course zillenials never knowing the world before handheld mobile devices can't imagine a time when it took imagination to think of the things they have today.
        mewpmewp2 2y ago
        But how did Star Trek creators come up with this? And how did people come up with things before the sci fi was available like it is now. I just really think influence of sci fi is really overestimated here. In fact people bruteforcing ideas for sci fi before the tech was available proves that you can think of those ideas even if you don't have the tech available. And if you do, it is much easier to come up with all of it. The tech came naturally in order as different types of tech became available irrespective of sci fi.
        dylan604 2y ago
        I really think we're talking circles, as you've now just stated what we've said in the first place. SciFi authors thought of something that would be cool to have. Now, we have the tech that makes those scifi things real things. The people making the real things admit they were inspired by the scifi thing rather than it being an original idea to them. What's your point?
        2y ago
    - throw4847285 2y ago
      Not so much real science. Mostly real technology. Those are very different things.
bmitc 2y ago
> Maybe there was life on Mars, but the main motivation to believe that right now is that many people have read about it in fantasy books. Life effectively began on Earth around 400 million years after it formed, and that's about the time that Mars' core cooled off and atmosphere got blown away. It seems that there was just enough time for life to start on Mars before it got snuffed out by the planetary geology of Mars and loss of its magnetosphere. If we ever find life on Mars, it's most certainly likely to be single-celled organisms.
- 48864w6ui 2y ago
  If we randomly sample individuals on earth, we're also likely to be single-celled organisms.
knighthack 2y ago
> "...It provides conclusions that people so badly want to prove true that they will look for any evidence, however meager, to bolster their arguments." You argue from the position that Martians 'must not be real'. Why is your conclusion any better than those who argue that Martians could be real? Science works upon evidence. If so: a) there is some evidence to support the existence of prior life on Mars; b) it is not the scientific case that life on Mars is impossible/implausible So why do you so strongly hold on to your own dogma, and chastise the conclusions of others as mere 'fantasy' and 'sci-fi'? You are no smarter than everyone else, by merely being contrarian.
- CardenB 2y ago
  you are shifting the burden of proof and failing to make a good argument here.
  - knighthack 2y ago
    Your statement make no sense. I cite how science permits plausibility upon evidence. This is in contrast to OP's wishful dogma, where anything not presently known must be fantasy/sci-based and implausible - which is not how science works.
    - throw4847285 2y ago
      I didn't say Martians can't be real. I said the evidence that I've encountered (obviously limited by the fact that I'm not a subject matter expert) is insufficient to overcome the threshold of doubt. I then theorized (uncharitably, I'll admit) that many people are predisposed to believe in martians because they've read too much science fiction stories which themselves are actually just metaphors for conditions of life here on Earth. I then made fun of these people, lightly I think.
nonethewiser 2y ago
Can you substantiate the claim that scifi is the biggest contributor to people thinking mars might have had life? Seems like a bold claim. Mars is the 2nd most habitable planet in the solar system and people have wondered if there was life out there for a lot longer than scifi has existed. This article has plenty of such examples. First one I see it Democritus around 400 bc. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterrestrial_life https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterrestrial_life

dylan604 2y ago

I don't blame scifi, after all it is just fiction. However, I think the blame could go to poor education and being able to know the difference.

throw4847285 2y ago
Yeah fair point. It's not as if Ray Bradbury was the most subtle writer. You have to try to miss the point. Then again, I get it. If somebody offered to build me a Gundam I wouldn't think "Oh no, a symbol for the dehumanization of soldiers on the modern battlefield" I'd think "Is the beam saber included?"
- dylan604 2y ago
  But at the same time, there's so much real science that has thoroughly been inspired by scifi. Sometimes, you just need to get the imagination juices flowing. "That thingymabob from sciFiTvShow would be really cool to have IRL. What would it take to do that...hold my beer" type thinking has probably given us more than we think. Or maybe I'm just romanticizing the concept too much?
  - jiggawatts 2y ago
    The voice feature of ChatGPT on my phone is basically the Star Trek ship computer. The weather radar app replicates a feature of the Star Trek tricorder that I saw in an episode of TNG. Household robots like in The Jetsons are coming soon, a couple decades at most from today. Etc…
    - mewpmewp2 2y ago
      Do you really need sci fi in either direction to come up with those ideas? I don't read or consume sci fi, but considering the tech available, these just seem like natural things you would try to do.
      - dylan604 2y ago
        > considering the tech available, Wow, you're doing some heavy caveating with that comment. Sure, someone today can say that a handheld device to show you the weather in any part of the world seems like a "duh" thing now, but in the 60s when Star Trek came to TV with a tricoder or really a handheld anything was pushing credibility. Computers at the time took up rooms in buildings. Of course zillenials never knowing the world before handheld mobile devices can't imagine a time when it took imagination to think of the things they have today.
        mewpmewp2 2y ago
        But how did Star Trek creators come up with this? And how did people come up with things before the sci fi was available like it is now. I just really think influence of sci fi is really overestimated here. In fact people bruteforcing ideas for sci fi before the tech was available proves that you can think of those ideas even if you don't have the tech available. And if you do, it is much easier to come up with all of it. The tech came naturally in order as different types of tech became available irrespective of sci fi.
        dylan604 2y ago
        I really think we're talking circles, as you've now just stated what we've said in the first place. SciFi authors thought of something that would be cool to have. Now, we have the tech that makes those scifi things real things. The people making the real things admit they were inspired by the scifi thing rather than it being an original idea to them. What's your point?
        2y ago
  - throw4847285 2y ago
    Not so much real science. Mostly real technology. Those are very different things.

bmitc 2y ago

> Maybe there was life on Mars, but the main motivation to believe that right now is that many people have read about it in fantasy books. Life effectively began on Earth around 400 million years after it formed, and that's about the time that Mars' core cooled off and atmosphere got blown away. It seems that there was just enough time for life to start on Mars before it got snuffed out by the planetary geology of Mars and loss of its magnetosphere. If we ever find life on Mars, it's most certainly likely to be single-celled organisms.

48864w6ui 2y ago
If we randomly sample individuals on earth, we're also likely to be single-celled organisms.

knighthack 2y ago

> "...It provides conclusions that people so badly want to prove true that they will look for any evidence, however meager, to bolster their arguments." You argue from the position that Martians 'must not be real'. Why is your conclusion any better than those who argue that Martians could be real? Science works upon evidence. If so: a) there is some evidence to support the existence of prior life on Mars; b) it is not the scientific case that life on Mars is impossible/implausible So why do you so strongly hold on to your own dogma, and chastise the conclusions of others as mere 'fantasy' and 'sci-fi'? You are no smarter than everyone else, by merely being contrarian.

CardenB 2y ago
you are shifting the burden of proof and failing to make a good argument here.
- knighthack 2y ago
  Your statement make no sense. I cite how science permits plausibility upon evidence. This is in contrast to OP's wishful dogma, where anything not presently known must be fantasy/sci-based and implausible - which is not how science works.
  - throw4847285 2y ago
    I didn't say Martians can't be real. I said the evidence that I've encountered (obviously limited by the fact that I'm not a subject matter expert) is insufficient to overcome the threshold of doubt. I then theorized (uncharitably, I'll admit) that many people are predisposed to believe in martians because they've read too much science fiction stories which themselves are actually just metaphors for conditions of life here on Earth. I then made fun of these people, lightly I think.

nonethewiser 2y ago

Can you substantiate the claim that scifi is the biggest contributor to people thinking mars might have had life? Seems like a bold claim. Mars is the 2nd most habitable planet in the solar system and people have wondered if there was life out there for a lot longer than scifi has existed. This article has plenty of such examples. First one I see it Democritus around 400 bc. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterrestrial_life https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterrestrial_life