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Seems like a data anomaly. With that said, I think it's a good time to go after Google's milkshake: 1. Google clearly lost focus and is rotting. Sundar Pichai

Seems like a data anomaly. With that said, I think it's a good time to go after Google's milkshake: 1. Google clearly lost focus and is rotting. Sundar Pichai makes Steve Ballmer or Brian Krzanich look good by comparison. They're killing search to optimize metrics like "# of searches" that are harmful to long term user value of the platform [1]. Google search has been getting worse for ~5 years, and will not change direction until they get a new CEO. As long as Pichai is at the helm, they'll keep optimizing the KPIs that boost next year's bonus at the expense of making a good service. 2. Kagi does a lot right, but it's run by the kind of lunatic that will spend a significant fraction of the company's budget to buy a t-shirt factory to make t-shirts instead of, you know, making a search engine. 3. Bing exists simply to be a corporate alternative to a competitor. That doesn't make for a good service. 4. DDG <-> bing when it comes to the actual search results. Nothing disruptive in here. 5. LLM based search is nice, but it doesn't fill a lot of the core things people actually search for on a day to day basis. It's a value-add, not a replacement. Couple of thoughts: - With generative AI filling the web with noise at an increasing rate, it'll be more important to rely on actual trust of sources rather than the content that's in there. Network/graph based metrics should do better than parsing/embedding the content itself. - If you're building a search engine service, maybe try to differentiate it for the 21st century? Start by targetting the kind of people that could switch - the same kind of people that already paid for Kagi. Paying for search is a good idea; it's just that Kagi is run by a loonie. Companies run this way don't tend to last. Kagi managed to get going with less than 5 engineers. You can bootstrap your project from commoncrawl these days. 1. https://www.wheresyoured.at/the-men-who-killed-google/ https://www.wheresyoured.at/the-men-who-killed-google/

NayamAmarshe 2y ago
I'd add Brave Search to the list. It's the only Search engine with an independent index that's privacy focused and is actually good! I've been using it for a few years now and I haven't used Google in a long time. The results are pretty good and it also has pretty nice features compared to Bing/Google/DDG. The UI is very minimal, not many distractions and there's also LLM search for those who need it.
- VHRanger 2y ago
  I'll try brave as my default engine for a week, see how it feels. Thanks!
LegitShady 2y ago
I think google knows that "search" as in non LLM search is probably dead in the near future, and LLM search other people beat them on. Google search is dead because its already an obsolete product heavily gamed by SEO. They stopped putting effort into it because they're already working on its replacement.
- VHRanger 2y ago
  Again, LLM search does some nice things that google search doesn't, but that's also because google search sucks. Google search has been "llm based" since around 2019 - they've integrated BERT embeddings of your queries for a long time! Having those embeddings plug into a text generation final layer instead of a retrieval infrastructure isn't somehow magical. ChatGPT only seems better because it's not filled with crap the same way google and bing are. With that said, search does a lot of things that chatGPT is simply not good at. "Find a hardware store near me". "How does a E15 lightbulb head look like versus the one in my hand", etc.
bloopernova 2y ago
Good lord people are so pissed off about the t-shirts! Everything about the t-shirts has already been argued to death, maybe just relax and don't participate in the internet hate machine? (and, yes, I'm a Kagi subscriber. I'd say the same thing if I wasn't a Kagi user though.)
- HideousKojima 2y ago
  I'm not a Kagi user, was unaware of the whole tshirt controversy until this thread, and personally I like the kind of lunatic that decides to buy an entire tshirt factory instead of having someone else print them. A man after my own heart
- VHRanger 2y ago
  OP you're responding to: I'm also happily paying for kagi - my point is it's a good time to start a competitor nonetheless. A startup CEO that gets distracted by T-Shirt factories and all sorts of other shiny squirrels is too unfocused to keep his train on track for the long haul.
  - WarOnPrivacy 2y ago
    > A startup CEO that gets distracted by T-Shirt factories The t-shirt distraction is 99.99999% everyone else, by volume.
jorvi 2y ago
> Kagi seems nice, but it's run by the kind of lunatic that will spend a significant fraction of the company's budget to buy a t-shirt factory to make t-shirts instead of He made a post here explaining that it worked out cheaper that way, and that it hasn’t risked the company. Not that I agree with the decision, but you are painting it in a very bad light. Kagi is a massive breath of fresh air, putting us, the user, at the helm again. We can choose what to personally up- and downrank, whether we want listicles, long or short site previews, the quick answer LLM is easily available, etc etc etc.. It has been a very very long time since I’ve seen a software product that is such a joyful improvement over all its competitors.
- VHRanger 2y ago
  Kagi does almost everything right, except being run by a someone who seems unfit for it. I'd want someone who is ruthlessly focused on growing the core search product. Focus is about saying no - I don't want a CEO distracted by a bunch of bullshit. I think it's a good time to eat Kagi's lunch as well.
  - gwill 2y ago
    google is the result of ruthless growth. i want someone focused on a quality product and experience for users.
eknkc 2y ago
> Kagi seems nice, but it's run by the kind of lunatic that will spend a significant fraction of the company's budget to buy a t-shirt factory to make t-shirts I thought this was a weird joke while reading but apparently it is true. I like it though. Only a lunatic would dare build a paid search engine and actually manage to find users in 2024.
- TeaBrain 2y ago
  Kagi doesn't have an independent search engine over their own index. Even the Kagi website calls it a search client. Without them creating their own index, I'm not sure it truly qualifies as an independent search engine. Brave Search, which had its full release less than two years ago, does have its own index and is one of the sources that Kagi uses. https://help.kagi.com/kagi/search-details/search-sources.html https://help.kagi.com/kagi/search-details/search-sources.htm...
  - tiltowait 2y ago
    Per that link, they do have their own in-house index (though they also pull from other sources).
    - TeaBrain 2y ago
      They do claim to use an independent Teclis index, but this cannot be where most of their non-news results come from as it is not a general index. From the information available on Teclis, it has a very limited index and currently is strictly purposed for the niche use of finding non-commercial content. Teclis itself doesn't even claim to be fully independent, and sources from the Marginalia non-commercial index. If they were relying on their own index, they wouldn't refer to Kagi as a client and reference the other sources with precedence. https://teclis.com/ https://teclis.com/
tivert 2y ago
> 2. Kagi does a lot right, but it's run by the kind of lunatic that will spend a significant fraction of the company's budget to buy a t-shirt factory to make t-shirts instead of, you know, making a search engine. What are you referring to there? Is it this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39124802 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39124802 / https://blog.kagi.com/celebrating-20k https://blog.kagi.com/celebrating-20k?
tokai 2y ago
The Kagi tshirt thing is a generous issue to take up. The owners thoughts on privacy and how it doesn't extent to people deemed criminals is much more problematic.
WarOnPrivacy 2y ago
> I think it's a good time to go after Google's milkshake: As far as we're talking Google->Bing, are we sure we're not just changing our source of Internet Pap? I mean, Vive la Compétition! and all. But for those of us worn out from the manipulated web, Bing results aren't exactly restoring hope.

NayamAmarshe 2y ago

I'd add Brave Search to the list. It's the only Search engine with an independent index that's privacy focused and is actually good! I've been using it for a few years now and I haven't used Google in a long time. The results are pretty good and it also has pretty nice features compared to Bing/Google/DDG. The UI is very minimal, not many distractions and there's also LLM search for those who need it.

VHRanger 2y ago
I'll try brave as my default engine for a week, see how it feels. Thanks!

LegitShady 2y ago

I think google knows that "search" as in non LLM search is probably dead in the near future, and LLM search other people beat them on. Google search is dead because its already an obsolete product heavily gamed by SEO. They stopped putting effort into it because they're already working on its replacement.

VHRanger 2y ago
Again, LLM search does some nice things that google search doesn't, but that's also because google search sucks. Google search has been "llm based" since around 2019 - they've integrated BERT embeddings of your queries for a long time! Having those embeddings plug into a text generation final layer instead of a retrieval infrastructure isn't somehow magical. ChatGPT only seems better because it's not filled with crap the same way google and bing are. With that said, search does a lot of things that chatGPT is simply not good at. "Find a hardware store near me". "How does a E15 lightbulb head look like versus the one in my hand", etc.

bloopernova 2y ago

Good lord people are so pissed off about the t-shirts! Everything about the t-shirts has already been argued to death, maybe just relax and don't participate in the internet hate machine? (and, yes, I'm a Kagi subscriber. I'd say the same thing if I wasn't a Kagi user though.)

HideousKojima 2y ago
I'm not a Kagi user, was unaware of the whole tshirt controversy until this thread, and personally I like the kind of lunatic that decides to buy an entire tshirt factory instead of having someone else print them. A man after my own heart
VHRanger 2y ago
OP you're responding to: I'm also happily paying for kagi - my point is it's a good time to start a competitor nonetheless. A startup CEO that gets distracted by T-Shirt factories and all sorts of other shiny squirrels is too unfocused to keep his train on track for the long haul.
- WarOnPrivacy 2y ago
  > A startup CEO that gets distracted by T-Shirt factories The t-shirt distraction is 99.99999% everyone else, by volume.

jorvi 2y ago

> Kagi seems nice, but it's run by the kind of lunatic that will spend a significant fraction of the company's budget to buy a t-shirt factory to make t-shirts instead of He made a post here explaining that it worked out cheaper that way, and that it hasn’t risked the company. Not that I agree with the decision, but you are painting it in a very bad light. Kagi is a massive breath of fresh air, putting us, the user, at the helm again. We can choose what to personally up- and downrank, whether we want listicles, long or short site previews, the quick answer LLM is easily available, etc etc etc.. It has been a very very long time since I’ve seen a software product that is such a joyful improvement over all its competitors.

VHRanger 2y ago
Kagi does almost everything right, except being run by a someone who seems unfit for it. I'd want someone who is ruthlessly focused on growing the core search product. Focus is about saying no - I don't want a CEO distracted by a bunch of bullshit. I think it's a good time to eat Kagi's lunch as well.
- gwill 2y ago
  google is the result of ruthless growth. i want someone focused on a quality product and experience for users.

eknkc 2y ago

> Kagi seems nice, but it's run by the kind of lunatic that will spend a significant fraction of the company's budget to buy a t-shirt factory to make t-shirts I thought this was a weird joke while reading but apparently it is true. I like it though. Only a lunatic would dare build a paid search engine and actually manage to find users in 2024.

TeaBrain 2y ago
Kagi doesn't have an independent search engine over their own index. Even the Kagi website calls it a search client. Without them creating their own index, I'm not sure it truly qualifies as an independent search engine. Brave Search, which had its full release less than two years ago, does have its own index and is one of the sources that Kagi uses. https://help.kagi.com/kagi/search-details/search-sources.html https://help.kagi.com/kagi/search-details/search-sources.htm...
- tiltowait 2y ago
  Per that link, they do have their own in-house index (though they also pull from other sources).
  - TeaBrain 2y ago
    They do claim to use an independent Teclis index, but this cannot be where most of their non-news results come from as it is not a general index. From the information available on Teclis, it has a very limited index and currently is strictly purposed for the niche use of finding non-commercial content. Teclis itself doesn't even claim to be fully independent, and sources from the Marginalia non-commercial index. If they were relying on their own index, they wouldn't refer to Kagi as a client and reference the other sources with precedence. https://teclis.com/ https://teclis.com/

tivert 2y ago

> 2. Kagi does a lot right, but it's run by the kind of lunatic that will spend a significant fraction of the company's budget to buy a t-shirt factory to make t-shirts instead of, you know, making a search engine. What are you referring to there? Is it this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39124802 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39124802 / https://blog.kagi.com/celebrating-20k https://blog.kagi.com/celebrating-20k?

tokai 2y ago

The Kagi tshirt thing is a generous issue to take up. The owners thoughts on privacy and how it doesn't extent to people deemed criminals is much more problematic.

WarOnPrivacy 2y ago

> I think it's a good time to go after Google's milkshake: As far as we're talking Google->Bing, are we sure we're not just changing our source of Internet Pap? I mean, Vive la Compétition! and all. But for those of us worn out from the manipulated web, Bing results aren't exactly restoring hope.