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Early Bitcoin Investor Roger Ver Charged with Tax Fraud
- afc 2y agoNot very surprising. He had already been arrested, back in 2002, for selling illegal stuff on eBay. He was somewhat of an attacker of Bitcoin, promoting his "bcash" fork.
- suck-my-spez 2y ago[flagged]
- YugyDugan 2y ago[dead]
- repomies69 2y agoBitcoin has worked for me all right for 10+ years. What is exactly wrong with it? At times fees have been a bit higher, but overall I would see the protocol as "good enough". For smaller transactions I have been using Lightning Network and it seems to work all right. The fact that Bitcoin hasn't hard forked for whatever reasons is a positive feature, that outweighs the negatives. You can consider for example Ethereum, which has hard forked numerous times and changed the monetary policy as well multiple times. It just feels quite centralized and controlled by Vitalik. Harder to trust that crap.
- TarasBob 2y agoEthereum is not controlled by Vitalik. Have you actually looked in to how decisions in Ethereum are made?
- yardstick 2y ago> Bitcoin has worked for me all right for 10+ years. What is exactly wrong with it? How much of your Bitcoin usage is associated with crypto investments, vs a replacement for traditional bank transfers and expense payments? I think it has worked well for a lot of people as an investment. Not so much as a replacement to normal money.
- tromp 2y agoBitcoin was designed as an investment vehicle by its choice of capped supply. Use as a currency would have vastly benefitted from a fixed block subsidy, which also would have avoided much of its current wealth concentration [1]. [1] https://john-tromp.medium.com/a-case-for-using-soft-total-supply-1169a188d153 https://john-tromp.medium.com/a-case-for-using-soft-total-su...
- sph 2y agoUse as currency is possible with Layer 2 systems like Lightning. The issues I believe are both technological, political and philosophical: apart from the ease of use (or lack thereof), people prefer the currency they need to pay taxes with, and will always prefer the depreciating one, until it stops having any useful value. See the arguments put forth by Saifedean Ammous in his book. For me the main ledger is equivalent to inter-bank settlement payments. It is not for people to use directly, it is to settle the large amount between "market makers", so $10+ transaction fees are not a problem when the amounts transferred would be in the millions. These settlements are few and far between, they do not require immediate execution. In Bitcoin parlance, these market makers would be Lightning nodes, which I imagine in the long run would not be operated by your Average Joe.
- hggh 2y ago> Bitcoin was designed as an investment vehicle Please read the whitepaper [0], at least its title [0] https://www.bitcoin.com/bitcoin.pdf https://www.bitcoin.com/bitcoin.pdf
- scotty79 2y agoI guess it was lucky that it was designed quite badly for the stated purpose and it was actually designed as investment vessel.
- hggh 2y agoBitcoin (BTC) worked perfectly as currency in the beginning, until Blockstream took over the development team, and they decided to keep the temporary anti-spam 1MB block limit, making 0-confirmation transactions (instant payments) very risky by implementing return-by-fee (which make transactions reversible before getting confirmed), etc.
- ErikBjare 2y agoVitalik is basically only a thought leader these days, he has taken many steps back (as you can read about on his blog). He doesn't "control" anything. The guiding principle for the monetary policy of Ethereum has not changed: minimum viable issuance. Thanks to the economic efficiency of PoS + fee burn, it enabled what amounts to frontrunning every "halving" and having ~net zero issuance, it's simply good for holders. If Bitcoin had a way to be secure without further issuance (huge can of worms, halvings are slowly ticking time bombs in the long-run, unless fees rise significantly), it'd be good for holders to fork and scrap it too. There'd be no need to pay billions for security through issuance. Calling Ethereum centralized at this point is ridiculous. The fact that core devs from multiple client teams can manage to agree on and implement forks to keep developing the protocol (unlike Bitcoin) is a major accomplishment, not a failure.
- hggh 2y ago> I have been using Lightning Network and it seems to work all right That won't last. As stated in the Lightning Network whitepaper [0], it will need much bigger blocks (it mentions up to 133MB) to scale. [0] https://lightning.network/lightning-network-paper.pdf https://lightning.network/lightning-network-paper.pdf
- npoc 2y agoNah, channel factories solve that problem. https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/67158/what-are-channel-factories-and-how-do-they-work https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/67158/what-are-c...
- lawn 2y ago> At times fees have been a bit higher Fees at $50 per traction is "a bit" higher to you?
- awrence 2y agoGiven the monetary policy Satoshi chose and the headline he picked to include in the genesis block, I really don't think you can infer what he himself thought bitcoin was meant to become, even if he referred to it as cash originally. Beyond that I don't see how it matters what something was designed to do or what early adopters personally used it for or thought it was meant to be used for. The only relevance for a technology is what it's actually adopted for over time and the total addressable market cap for a store of value being 100x + of that of a medium of exchange, it makes perfect sense to me that that's the feature the market converged to by far as reflected amongst other things by the relative prices between current btc and bch...
- mike_hearn 2y agoSatoshi wrote extensively about what he imagined Bitcoin could become, including in emails to me that I later published. Certainly, what was done to the original Bitcoin completely voided Satoshi's goals and offers an abject lesson in the difficulty of keeping institutions on-track over time. Note that the same tactics that were used to wreck Bitcoin are now being deployed against Nix, as the open source community has struggled to learn the right lessons from Bitcoin. > it makes perfect sense to me that that's the feature the market converged to The market certainly didn't converge to that outcome. It was the result of relentless political scheming and psychological manipulation of a small number of people, combined with criminal tactics like DDoS attacks. The winners of that fight have then tried to retcon what happened as some sort of natural or obvious outcome, but then why did it require so much viciousness and illegal behaviour? The market value of all cryptocurrencies seems to move in tandem, or at least did many years ago when I last cared about this topic. It reflects nothing more than the general hype and brand awareness around Bitcoin and crypto. Certainly a "store of value" that can't directly be used to purchase things is worthless, as any government that wishes to void that store of value and force users back into their own currencies can do so overnight by simple legal fiat.
- nullc 2y ago> including in emails to me that I later published Without headers.
- lawn 2y agoRoger has consistently been promoting the same ideals from the beginning. BCH was also never "his" fork, it was just the fork he started to support. "bash" is a slur to attack the BCH fork, same as the character assassination that Roger has been subjected to. Finally, he sold firecrackers on eBay.
- hggh 2y agoFor reference, that "illegal stuff" were just fireworks (too powerful, I guess) [0]. Those "attacks" are fully explained in his recent book "Hijacking Bitcoin: The Hidden History of BTC" [1]. He didn't fork Bitcoin, he just proposed its name: Bitcoin Cash [2], which is not "bcash" [2][3]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Ver https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Ver [1] https://www.hijackingbitcoin.com/ https://www.hijackingbitcoin.com/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin_Cash https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin_Cash [3] https://medium.com/@jonaldfyookball/why-some-people-call-bitcoin-cash-bcash-this-will-be-shocking-to-new-readers-956558da12fb https://medium.com/@jonaldfyookball/why-some-people-call-bit...
- bb88 2y ago[flagged]
- TheDudeMan 2y agoInteresting title by justice.gov. Tax evasion is illegal regardless of your background / investment portfolio, so why relevant? Sowing sentiment?
- blackhawkC17 2y agoIt’s a normal thing for the DOJ. They write press releases like articles, so you’ll see titles like “Popular businessman,” “Tech Company Founder charged with fraud,” “Social Media Influencer charged with…” etc.
- chefandy 2y ago> Sowing sentiment? Yes. Trials are adversarial- persuasion often matters as much or more than facts in formal legal writing. Blog posts presenting reason for prosecuting someone even moreso... Public perception, politics, etc etc etc.
- Hermel 2y agoMore and more countries are implementing an "exit tax" when wealthy people try to give up their citizenship. Also, the US authorities make it increasingly hard to do so. I wouldn't recommend anyone to become a US citizen. Once you are in, it is very costly to get out again.
- repomies69 2y agoUS is likely the only jurisdiction that can actually enforce it. Other countries can't just call US government to send them back if they suspect they owe some tax.
- jajko 2y agoMaybe, but you maybe want to travel. Even going back. Too bad if it would end up in 5 years jail time for some tax evasion or similar
- trimethylpurine 2y ago>Other countries can't just call US government to send them Tax fraud is fraud. The US definitely extradites for fraud. * Gaston Bastiaens * Stein Bagger * John Kirk
- jimbob45 2y agoWhy not just maintain dual citizenship instead of needlessly renouncing?
- notagoodidea 2y agoSome countries don’t allow dual citizenships like the Netherlands and others allow it like Belgium.
- lIl-IIIl 2y agoBecause US citizens have an IRS filing requirement even when living abroad. It is a very uncommon requirement among countries.
- 111111101101 2y agoI'll never forget "Bitcoin Jesus" making this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP1YsMlrfF0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP1YsMlrfF0
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- victor22 2y agoLegendary piece of bitcoin history btw I've lost all my bitcoin twitce in my 10 years involved, but its so much fun to fuck the system
- kaliqt 2y agoAbsolute power corrupts absolutely, never has this been more obvious to see than when nation states gain excessive power over others.
- blackhawkC17 2y ago> Around that time, Ver allegedly took possession of those bitcoins and in November 2017 sold tens of thousands of them on cryptocurrency exchanges for approximately $240 million in cash. > Even though Ver was not then a U.S. citizen, he was still legally required to report to the IRS and pay tax on certain distributions such as dividends from MemoryDealers and Agilestar, which were U.S. corporations. > In total, Ver is alleged to have caused a loss to the IRS of at least $48 million. Lesson: You can’t run away from Uncle Sam even after signing away your citizenship.
- awrence 2y agoI'm not a tax expert so wondering, shouldn't the potential loss be computed off the non payment of exit tax at date of exit or 2014 levels? (which would have computed to much lower than 48mm)
- vasco 2y agoThe article says it's mainly 2 things: under-reporting on the exit tax, but also not reporting the dividend more recently (2017) when he transferred the coins to himself from the companies.
- _1_1_1_1_1_1_ 2y ago[dead]
- vdddv 2y ago@MemoryDealers but not active here apart from a 2012 comment https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=MemoryDealers https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=MemoryDealers
- andrewstuart 2y agoLook, if you owe lots of tax its because you made lots of money. Pay the tax, be happy. I just don't get why some people are so obsessed with not paying tax. You don't have to pay tax when you didn't earn money so stop being so stingy. I know lots of people who go to extraordinary lengths to reduce the amount of tax they will pay even if it means they end up with less money in their pocket. It's crazy. Needing to pay tax seem to make some people go nuts. I know one person who would rather make half the salary because it means less is paid in tax. I just roll my eyes. Just pay it. It pays for defence, education, health, government services and a bajillion other things. Get a grip, tax obsessives.
- hamandcheese 2y agoI hate taxes because US tax code is pretty slanted against income earners. It just doesn't feel great to take home proportionally less and less as you work harder. We don't treat corporations or capital holders the same way, and that makes me bitter.
- andrewstuart 2y agoI never said you should love taxes. I'm talking about people who are unreasonably obsessed with paying tax.
- janalsncm 2y ago100% agree. Taking a paycheck is the worst way to make money in America. That said, it makes me even more sympathetic to the post you replied to. Basically no one working a 9-5 is making enough to owe the IRS $48 million, including this guy. If you make $240 million, pay your damn tax and be happy.
- rank0 2y agoTheres a huge difference between legally optimizing your tax burden and committing tax fraud. If you want to give more money than is legally required to the federal government so they can light it on fire I guess that’s your prerogative…
- keyme 2y agoIsn't there some kind of statue of limitations in us tax law? That's stuff from 11 years ago.
- orionsbelt 2y agoNot for fraudulent returns
- tmn007 2y agoI remember getting the cisco compatible switch optics from Memory dealers. Heaps cheaper than Cisco- $5 an optic compared to $1000.
- nullc 2y agoApparently one way memory dealers products were sometimes cheaper was due being counterfeit: https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/us-4th-circuit/1627804.html https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/us-4th-circuit/1627804.htm...
- hggh 2y ago> Ver was arrested this weekend in Spain based on the U.S. criminal charges. John McAfee was also arrested in Spain in 2021 for tax evasion taxes, and was found dead in prison. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27609027 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27609027
- gear54rus 2y ago- anything to declare? - yeah, don't go to Spain (c) Snatch
- janmo 2y agoVery interesting that he got arrested in Spain for tax fraud, just like John McAfee. Things look quite bad for him, he went all in on Bitcoin Cash, and even used leverage. He defaulted on CoinFLEX and owes them $47M in USDC. Roger Ver went from owning 131,000 Bitcoins in 2014 (worth almost 8 billion USD as of today) to pretty much broke.
- arisAlexis 2y agoHow can you possibly know he is broke
- nullc 2y agoFun fact: Ver's twitter account https://twitter.com/rogerkver/ https://twitter.com/rogerkver/ has the "Government agent" grey checkmark.
- lawn 2y agoFun fact: Gregory Maxwell (aka nullc) has been on the forefront of the character assassination of Roger, and he can't let this opportunity to take a stab go to waste. For some insight into the mind of nullc, see his abusive Wikipedia behavior[0]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&oldid=36639732#User:Gmaxwell https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Adminis...
- nullc 2y agoHello lawn, nice to meet you. Since apparently some lame edit war on Wikipedia I got into 18 years ago that lasted all of about a day and was shortly forgotten by all is of such apparent interest, perhaps you'd be interested in sharing exactly what you were up to 18 years ago? In any case, I fail to see how pointing out the he is a government representative-- according to twitter-- is in any way a character assassination.
- hggh 2y agoHello troll, https://old.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/kn25yb/an_insight_into_the_mind_of_greg_maxwell_nullc/ https://old.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/kn25yb/an_insight_into...
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]