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Although I think HTML5 is actually a pretty lousy software stack for application development, I'm becoming more and more sympathetic to the arguments that the e

Although I think HTML5 is actually a pretty lousy software stack for application development, I'm becoming more and more sympathetic to the arguments that the evolution of the web is absolutely essential for the survival of free & open computing. It was bad enough that their mobile platforms are so locked down, but with Apple and Microsoft now turning the screws ever tighter on their previously open desktop platforms and development tools the future is looking grim. Remember, once a freedom is relinquished it can be very difficult to get it back. As much as I dislike trying to build complex apps on the web stack I'm starting to feel an almost moral obligation as a hacker to throw my weight behind the web, for whatever it's worth.

daeken 14y ago
> Remember, once a freedom is relinquished it can be very difficult to get it back. No, it's not. I'm a huge, huge MS fanboi. I've used WP7 since it launched, I've been using Windows full time for quite a few years now and love it, I'm a huge .NET fan, etc. But about two weeks ago, I switched back to using Linux full-time. I only plan on using Windows in VMs for running software I'm reversing; everything else will be done natively under Linux. Windows 8 on ARM being so locked down was the last straw. I'm done playing their game, even if it means a slight drop in productivity in the short term.
- cageface 14y ago
  You have that option because some people have done the hard work of building Linux into a viable alternative. If we collectively do the easy thing and submit to these new controls those alternatives may cease to exist. I think these new walled garden platforms are a real threat to the open web. But I applaud your willingness to put principle before convenience. I've been working almost exclusively on iOS apps for the last year and I really enjoy the platform but it bothers my conscience.
- bad_user 14y ago
  About your productivity levels, don't worry about it because in the end you'll end up being much more productive. The one thing you must do is to embrace the Unix way of doing things. Learn the basic command-line tools and use them daily. Learn to use Emacs, because the same shortcuts are available in the shell. This book is great btw: Unix Power Tools (http://amzn.to/Klexhf http://amzn.to/Klexhf) Another thing you have to realize is that Unix was built for polyglots. Many Windows developers usually stay within the walls of .NET, but on Unix that's a mistake. Learn Java, learn a good scripting language (I recommend Ruby because it is great for scripting, has a thriving community and can also run on top of the JVM), learn C along with the POSIX APIs. Eclipse or IntelliJ IDEA are good substitutes for Visual Studio, however I work with Emacs, because in dynamic languages the APIs and workflow are optimized for non-IDE usage and an IDE just stays in my way. I still use an IDE for Java, but that's only because in Java I can't drop to a REPL. Also, Linux is great for your desktop, but only if you have hardware that's compatible with it. So be careful when picking hardware and do some reading first, otherwise it will ruin your mood. OS X is also an option btw, but I wouldn't make long-term commitments to this platform because Apple is even worse than Microsoft in some regards.
  - daeken 14y ago
    I've been using Linux since 1999, ran it full time for many years. However, my productivity is still diminished, primarily due to the lack of decent reversing tools. IDA 6 is ok on Linux, but that's about where it ends. Eventually I'll build my tools up again, but it's a long climb.
chj 14y ago
Well said. However, we can go to back the open platforms, like Android.
- seanmcdirmid 14y ago
  Honest question: how open is Android? I mean, when you consider Play. Can you write/submit an end-user programming app like Scratch? I know we can always dev-unlock the device and install anything we want, but what about the kid with an Android tablet who wants to start hacking? I'm worried about this move to walled gardens on all the platforms. The desktop is one of the last bastions of openness, but its not really evolving. Could we have cake (openness) and eat it to (app store where devs can make money, at least easily distribute their possibly creation-oriented apps)?
  - cageface 14y ago
    Android is not as open as I would like, but most devices still let you tick one checkbox in the preferences and then install whatever you like. The tools are open and free and work on Mac/Win/Linux. I think people wildly overestimate how much money the typical app can make in any of the app stores but I do think it's important that we find ways to make it easier to monetize web apps.
  - altrego99 14y ago
    Won't the first thing the kid with an Android tablet who wants to start hacking do would be to learn how any application can be installed in the device?
  - antrix 14y ago
    > Can you write/submit an end-user programming app like Scratch? Yes, you can. e.g AIDE : https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.aide.ui https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.aide.ui
  - notatoad 14y ago
    Android isn't google play. You can install any apk files you want onto your android device. No hacking or rooting or jail breaking required.
jmathai 14y ago
Agreed. It's unfortunate. I'm not an open source or freedom zealot but good gawd the open web is what gave birth to all the awesomeness we have. Take away "open" and we'll end up with a bunch of software on all of our mobile phones that's the equivalent of IE6 in 2012.
- justincormack 14y ago
  No, Unix gave us that awesomeness. including giving us the open web.
perlgeek 14y ago
"the web" is just a platform. For some applications it makes sense, for other not so much. I spend maybe 8 to 12 hours a day in front of some very classic laptops or desktop PCs, and I'm happy with low-latency desktop programs. I don't anticipate this to change. Maybe the industry sells more mobile devices these days, and that makes it easy to for people to go "all mobile" or "all html5", but a good amount of being actually productive still happens on the old school desktop.
- cageface 14y ago
  But both Apple and Microsoft appear to be making moves to lock down the desktop too. In many cases I prefer native apps too but I don't like Apple or MS telling me what I can and can't install on my computer.
gurkendoktor 14y ago
> the evolution of the web is absolutely essential for the survival of free & open computing. I don't understand the connection. How many of the web services we use are open source? A native program I buy may be closed source, but it runs on my computer and storage and is updated on my terms. I can even legally crack it if that's what it takes to keep it running (as far as I understand German laws). If I use an open-source OS and an open-source web browser to access a standards-based HTML5 web service, what interesting freedom do I have? Now, Metro may offer a better deal by encouraging local HTML5 apps. But I still think the Open Web is something that underdog browsers should care about, neither users nor developers.
- cageface 14y ago
  If I use an open-source OS and an open-source web browser to access a standards-based HTML5 web service, what interesting freedom do I have? You have the freedom to use a site built by anyone, anywhere in the world, for any purpose, using any tools or process they like. If you limit yourself to these new appstores you can't run anything that wasn't approved by the gatekeeper. And if you think Microsoft or Apple abuse their authority now just wait until they have nothing to fear.
  - fauigerzigerk 14y ago
    In my view, locked down desktops and web apps are just two different ways of taking away freedoms. The difference is that web apps give you something in return. They allow you to run software without having to buy and support all the required hardware. A desktop restricted to running apps from an App Store takes away freedoms without providing anything of any additional value for competent users.
    - cageface 14y ago
      I think the really critical difference is that Apple and Microsoft can't tell me what "apps" I may or may not run on the web but they do demand this privilege on their mobile devices and seem to be making moves towards insisting on it on the desktop too.
jiggy2011 14y ago
Will the web be the most "open" platform in the long run though? What happens if services like amazon AWS put smaller hosts out of business and services like facebook become so ubiquitous that they are considered the "gateway" to the web and most web services are built on top of these APIs?
- kaybe 14y ago
  I've been thinking about this for a while - if they (or we?) break this internet we have, can we make a new one, hidden from those who would break it? Would it require new infrastructure or could it be hidden inside the 'normal' net?
  - MatthewPhillips 14y ago
    Gopher.
    - kaybe 14y ago
      Do you have more information about how this could work?
16s 14y ago
I'm coming to hold this view as well. A much as I dislike web development in general, I plan to do more work there to hedge against this. I like for my software to run anywhere I need it and a web browser seems to be the only place it'll run without vendor interference, but I wonder when they may start attacking browsers?

daeken 14y ago

> Remember, once a freedom is relinquished it can be very difficult to get it back. No, it's not. I'm a huge, huge MS fanboi. I've used WP7 since it launched, I've been using Windows full time for quite a few years now and love it, I'm a huge .NET fan, etc. But about two weeks ago, I switched back to using Linux full-time. I only plan on using Windows in VMs for running software I'm reversing; everything else will be done natively under Linux. Windows 8 on ARM being so locked down was the last straw. I'm done playing their game, even if it means a slight drop in productivity in the short term.

cageface 14y ago
You have that option because some people have done the hard work of building Linux into a viable alternative. If we collectively do the easy thing and submit to these new controls those alternatives may cease to exist. I think these new walled garden platforms are a real threat to the open web. But I applaud your willingness to put principle before convenience. I've been working almost exclusively on iOS apps for the last year and I really enjoy the platform but it bothers my conscience.
bad_user 14y ago
About your productivity levels, don't worry about it because in the end you'll end up being much more productive. The one thing you must do is to embrace the Unix way of doing things. Learn the basic command-line tools and use them daily. Learn to use Emacs, because the same shortcuts are available in the shell. This book is great btw: Unix Power Tools (http://amzn.to/Klexhf http://amzn.to/Klexhf) Another thing you have to realize is that Unix was built for polyglots. Many Windows developers usually stay within the walls of .NET, but on Unix that's a mistake. Learn Java, learn a good scripting language (I recommend Ruby because it is great for scripting, has a thriving community and can also run on top of the JVM), learn C along with the POSIX APIs. Eclipse or IntelliJ IDEA are good substitutes for Visual Studio, however I work with Emacs, because in dynamic languages the APIs and workflow are optimized for non-IDE usage and an IDE just stays in my way. I still use an IDE for Java, but that's only because in Java I can't drop to a REPL. Also, Linux is great for your desktop, but only if you have hardware that's compatible with it. So be careful when picking hardware and do some reading first, otherwise it will ruin your mood. OS X is also an option btw, but I wouldn't make long-term commitments to this platform because Apple is even worse than Microsoft in some regards.
- daeken 14y ago
  I've been using Linux since 1999, ran it full time for many years. However, my productivity is still diminished, primarily due to the lack of decent reversing tools. IDA 6 is ok on Linux, but that's about where it ends. Eventually I'll build my tools up again, but it's a long climb.

chj 14y ago

Well said. However, we can go to back the open platforms, like Android.

seanmcdirmid 14y ago
Honest question: how open is Android? I mean, when you consider Play. Can you write/submit an end-user programming app like Scratch? I know we can always dev-unlock the device and install anything we want, but what about the kid with an Android tablet who wants to start hacking? I'm worried about this move to walled gardens on all the platforms. The desktop is one of the last bastions of openness, but its not really evolving. Could we have cake (openness) and eat it to (app store where devs can make money, at least easily distribute their possibly creation-oriented apps)?
- cageface 14y ago
  Android is not as open as I would like, but most devices still let you tick one checkbox in the preferences and then install whatever you like. The tools are open and free and work on Mac/Win/Linux. I think people wildly overestimate how much money the typical app can make in any of the app stores but I do think it's important that we find ways to make it easier to monetize web apps.
- altrego99 14y ago
  Won't the first thing the kid with an Android tablet who wants to start hacking do would be to learn how any application can be installed in the device?
- antrix 14y ago
  > Can you write/submit an end-user programming app like Scratch? Yes, you can. e.g AIDE : https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.aide.ui https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.aide.ui
- notatoad 14y ago
  Android isn't google play. You can install any apk files you want onto your android device. No hacking or rooting or jail breaking required.

jmathai 14y ago

Agreed. It's unfortunate. I'm not an open source or freedom zealot but good gawd the open web is what gave birth to all the awesomeness we have. Take away "open" and we'll end up with a bunch of software on all of our mobile phones that's the equivalent of IE6 in 2012.

justincormack 14y ago
No, Unix gave us that awesomeness. including giving us the open web.

perlgeek 14y ago

"the web" is just a platform. For some applications it makes sense, for other not so much. I spend maybe 8 to 12 hours a day in front of some very classic laptops or desktop PCs, and I'm happy with low-latency desktop programs. I don't anticipate this to change. Maybe the industry sells more mobile devices these days, and that makes it easy to for people to go "all mobile" or "all html5", but a good amount of being actually productive still happens on the old school desktop.

cageface 14y ago
But both Apple and Microsoft appear to be making moves to lock down the desktop too. In many cases I prefer native apps too but I don't like Apple or MS telling me what I can and can't install on my computer.

gurkendoktor 14y ago

> the evolution of the web is absolutely essential for the survival of free & open computing. I don't understand the connection. How many of the web services we use are open source? A native program I buy may be closed source, but it runs on my computer and storage and is updated on my terms. I can even legally crack it if that's what it takes to keep it running (as far as I understand German laws). If I use an open-source OS and an open-source web browser to access a standards-based HTML5 web service, what interesting freedom do I have? Now, Metro may offer a better deal by encouraging local HTML5 apps. But I still think the Open Web is something that underdog browsers should care about, neither users nor developers.

cageface 14y ago
If I use an open-source OS and an open-source web browser to access a standards-based HTML5 web service, what interesting freedom do I have? You have the freedom to use a site built by anyone, anywhere in the world, for any purpose, using any tools or process they like. If you limit yourself to these new appstores you can't run anything that wasn't approved by the gatekeeper. And if you think Microsoft or Apple abuse their authority now just wait until they have nothing to fear.
- fauigerzigerk 14y ago
  In my view, locked down desktops and web apps are just two different ways of taking away freedoms. The difference is that web apps give you something in return. They allow you to run software without having to buy and support all the required hardware. A desktop restricted to running apps from an App Store takes away freedoms without providing anything of any additional value for competent users.
  - cageface 14y ago
    I think the really critical difference is that Apple and Microsoft can't tell me what "apps" I may or may not run on the web but they do demand this privilege on their mobile devices and seem to be making moves towards insisting on it on the desktop too.

jiggy2011 14y ago

Will the web be the most "open" platform in the long run though? What happens if services like amazon AWS put smaller hosts out of business and services like facebook become so ubiquitous that they are considered the "gateway" to the web and most web services are built on top of these APIs?

kaybe 14y ago
I've been thinking about this for a while - if they (or we?) break this internet we have, can we make a new one, hidden from those who would break it? Would it require new infrastructure or could it be hidden inside the 'normal' net?
- MatthewPhillips 14y ago
  Gopher.
  - kaybe 14y ago
    Do you have more information about how this could work?

16s 14y ago

I'm coming to hold this view as well. A much as I dislike web development in general, I plan to do more work there to hedge against this. I like for my software to run anywhere I need it and a web browser seems to be the only place it'll run without vendor interference, but I wonder when they may start attacking browsers?