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> If it’s the latter, please point me to evidence of pro-Palestine organizations supporting the violent actions of Hamas terrorists. I don’t want to see individ

> If it’s the latter, please point me to evidence of pro-Palestine organizations supporting the violent actions of Hamas terrorists. I don’t want to see individuals that have no visible ties spouting bullshit. There should be a press release by the orgs or leaders of these orgs stating this as such. The question is whether this is an unreasonably strong standard. Even Hamas themselves have not issued a clear official statement in support of their actions; their spokespeople variably claim that they did not commit any atrocities on October 7, or that the atrocities against civilians were collateral damage in a legitimate military operation.

slantedview 3y ago
These protests aren't about Hamas though. There are other protests about that, and surely those are valid. These protests are about Israel's campaign of what UN officials say is genocide. Most attempts to change the subject to Hamas are bad faith attempts to protect Israel from culpability.
- Georgelemental 3y ago
  [flagged]
- nsguy 3y ago
  UN officials don't say it's genocide and anyways they're not the arbiters of that claim. Changing the subject to Hamas is not bad faith. Hamas is the ruler of Gaza, was voted into power, and enjoys support of most Palestinians. It's impossible for Israel to "separate" its war on Hamas from the population within it resides. The ignoring of Hamas by the anti-Israel crowd is what's bad faith. Do you separate the Russians from Putin? Should we boycott Ukraine from attacking Russians and not fighting directly with Putin? Do you have any other realistic examples that support your idea that somehow we can ignore the topic of Hamas here? Are the anti-Israel protesters being clear about their stance on Hamas and terrorism?
  - defrost 3y ago
    > Hamas is the ruler of Gaza, was voted into power, and enjoys support of most Palestinians. Hamas was voted in 18 years ago with less than 45% of the vote on a platform of clean government and keeping peace with Israel based on the 1967 borders. Hamas today is not the Hamas that was voted in, very few Palestinians alive today voted for them.
    - acdha 3y ago
      Re: your last point, the median age is around 18 so half the population wasn’t even born the last time there was an election. I cannot imagine what it must be like growing up with so little control over your life. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_State_of_Palestine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_State_of_P...
    - nsguy 3y ago
      Hamas today is exactly the same Hamas that was voted in. If elections were to happen again, Hamas would still get voted in, that's why they haven't happened. That's the reality which anti-Israelis are determined to ignore. % of the popular vote doesn't matter. US presidents also get voted with less than 50% of the popular vote. Their platform isn't and never was peace within the 1967 borders. Again that's the reality anti-Israelis are determined to ignore.
      - Georgelemental 3y ago
        > If elections were to happen again, Hamas would still get voted in, that's why they haven't happened. If Hamas believed they would win, wouldn't they be more inclined to hold elections in the territory they control?
  - Georgelemental 3y ago
    Netanyahu and his administration actively worked to bolster Hamas and keep them in power: https://original.antiwar.com/connor_freeman/2023/10/26/netanyahus-support-for-hamas-backfired/ https://original.antiwar.com/connor_freeman/2023/10/26/netan... So yes, let's go after all supporters of terrorism!
- SpicyLemonZest 3y ago
  I’m not sure what you mean by “bad faith” here. I think most defenders of Israel are pretty forthright about their belief that UN officials are wrong and Hamas is solely responsible for the suffering in Gaza. That doesn’t mean you have to agree - I personally am skeptical that trying to parse out who’s most responsible or most at fault makes sense - but most of the opponents you’re seeing genuinely feel that protests against Israel are protecting Hamas from culpability. (International relations in a violent region are hard!)

slantedview 3y ago

These protests aren't about Hamas though. There are other protests about that, and surely those are valid. These protests are about Israel's campaign of what UN officials say is genocide. Most attempts to change the subject to Hamas are bad faith attempts to protect Israel from culpability.

Georgelemental 3y ago
[flagged]
nsguy 3y ago
UN officials don't say it's genocide and anyways they're not the arbiters of that claim. Changing the subject to Hamas is not bad faith. Hamas is the ruler of Gaza, was voted into power, and enjoys support of most Palestinians. It's impossible for Israel to "separate" its war on Hamas from the population within it resides. The ignoring of Hamas by the anti-Israel crowd is what's bad faith. Do you separate the Russians from Putin? Should we boycott Ukraine from attacking Russians and not fighting directly with Putin? Do you have any other realistic examples that support your idea that somehow we can ignore the topic of Hamas here? Are the anti-Israel protesters being clear about their stance on Hamas and terrorism?
- defrost 3y ago
  > Hamas is the ruler of Gaza, was voted into power, and enjoys support of most Palestinians. Hamas was voted in 18 years ago with less than 45% of the vote on a platform of clean government and keeping peace with Israel based on the 1967 borders. Hamas today is not the Hamas that was voted in, very few Palestinians alive today voted for them.
  - acdha 3y ago
    Re: your last point, the median age is around 18 so half the population wasn’t even born the last time there was an election. I cannot imagine what it must be like growing up with so little control over your life. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_State_of_Palestine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_State_of_P...
  - nsguy 3y ago
    Hamas today is exactly the same Hamas that was voted in. If elections were to happen again, Hamas would still get voted in, that's why they haven't happened. That's the reality which anti-Israelis are determined to ignore. % of the popular vote doesn't matter. US presidents also get voted with less than 50% of the popular vote. Their platform isn't and never was peace within the 1967 borders. Again that's the reality anti-Israelis are determined to ignore.
    - Georgelemental 3y ago
      > If elections were to happen again, Hamas would still get voted in, that's why they haven't happened. If Hamas believed they would win, wouldn't they be more inclined to hold elections in the territory they control?
- Georgelemental 3y ago
  Netanyahu and his administration actively worked to bolster Hamas and keep them in power: https://original.antiwar.com/connor_freeman/2023/10/26/netanyahus-support-for-hamas-backfired/ https://original.antiwar.com/connor_freeman/2023/10/26/netan... So yes, let's go after all supporters of terrorism!
SpicyLemonZest 3y ago
I’m not sure what you mean by “bad faith” here. I think most defenders of Israel are pretty forthright about their belief that UN officials are wrong and Hamas is solely responsible for the suffering in Gaza. That doesn’t mean you have to agree - I personally am skeptical that trying to parse out who’s most responsible or most at fault makes sense - but most of the opponents you’re seeing genuinely feel that protests against Israel are protecting Hamas from culpability. (International relations in a violent region are hard!)