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2 weeks ago I didn't understood the systemd hate. But I tried to run udev-requiring program on non-systemd based distro. And now I don't like systemd anymore.

by Xeamek 2y ago

suprjami 2y ago
So, you don't like a component because you ran software which requires that component, and you intentionally ran it in an environment without that component. That does not make sense to me?
- rezonant 2y ago
  Well, I tried to run a Mac binary on Windows and it didn't work, so now I don't like Mac.
- vpzom 2y ago
  The popularity of systemd encourages people to require it, which is the major problem that said iirc udev was formerly separate and active forks still exist
  - JoshTriplett 2y ago
    > The popularity of systemd encourages people to require it, which is the major problem The usefulness of systemd encourages people to require it. Projects most often require it in cases where either there isn't an alternative, the alternative isn't maintained, or the alternative is missing functionality.
    - Xeamek 2y ago
      Self perpetuating growth. Systemd integrates many functions so people default using it and add even more functionality that bring even more people into ecosystem. Which is basically how every tech ecosystem works. The problem is that linux is supposed to not be just_another_centrally_controlled_ecosystem, so when systemd abuses their popularity by enforcing whole ecosystem (rather then cut itself into separate pieces), that is worrying
      - JoshTriplett 2y ago
        It seems like you're attributing to perceived malice ("enforcing") what is better explained by a combination of trying to get things done and not prioritizing replaceability higher than the benefits of integration. In other words, a project that simply has different priorities. It turns out that many other people also like seeing stuff get done more so than they care whether the project in question is trivially replaceable.
- Xeamek 2y ago
  No. I don't like a framework that promotes using components that are arbitrary dependent on it. To use udev, I need systemd-init, and to use systemd-init I need systemd boot. I really don't believe it MUST be this way, and those requirements aren't at least partially arbitral. Why systemd refuses to run in chroot?
  - BenjiWiebe 2y ago
    You don't actually need to use systems-boot to use systemd-init. They're two separate things.
bhaney 2y ago
You must absolutely despise libc
- lmm 2y ago
  libc has multiple independent implementations, if you don't like one you can switch to another. Software that hard-depends on a specific libc is indeed to be despised.
- Xeamek 2y ago
  The difference is that I can solve libc dependency at comp time (statically linked against it), while systemd dependencies require runtime support.
deadbunny 2y ago
I tried filling up a Tesla at a gas station. And now I don't like electric cars anymore.
- lupusreal 2y ago
  You joke but the inability of BEVs to make use of the gas station infrastructure is probably their number one obstacle to mass adoption.
  - shrimp_emoji 2y ago
    You just rent some parking space for the charge pylons. Probably off to the side where the self-service wash hose/tire pump usually is.
    - vdqtp3 2y ago
      The energy bandwidth of a charger as opposed to a gas pump is a huge issue right now. Gas pumps can easily pump up to 10gpm [1], corresponding to 300 miles of charge in 3-5 minutes as opposed to Superchargers, which take 15 minutes to charge enough for 200 miles of driving[2]. When this is improved, it will make BEV's much more acceptable to many people. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_pump#Design https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_pump#Design [2] https://www.energysage.com/ev-charging/tesla-supercharger-guide/#how-charging-works-with-tesla-superchargers https://www.energysage.com/ev-charging/tesla-supercharger-gu...

2 weeks ago I didn't understood the systemd hate. But I tried to run udev-requiring program on non-systemd based distro. And now I don't like systemd anymore.

by Xeamek 2y ago

2 weeks ago I didn't understood the systemd hate. But I tried to run udev-requiring program on non-systemd based distro. And now I don't like systemd anymore.

suprjami 2y ago

So, you don't like a component because you ran software which requires that component, and you intentionally ran it in an environment without that component. That does not make sense to me?

rezonant 2y ago
Well, I tried to run a Mac binary on Windows and it didn't work, so now I don't like Mac.
vpzom 2y ago
The popularity of systemd encourages people to require it, which is the major problem that said iirc udev was formerly separate and active forks still exist
- JoshTriplett 2y ago
  > The popularity of systemd encourages people to require it, which is the major problem The usefulness of systemd encourages people to require it. Projects most often require it in cases where either there isn't an alternative, the alternative isn't maintained, or the alternative is missing functionality.
  - Xeamek 2y ago
    Self perpetuating growth. Systemd integrates many functions so people default using it and add even more functionality that bring even more people into ecosystem. Which is basically how every tech ecosystem works. The problem is that linux is supposed to not be just_another_centrally_controlled_ecosystem, so when systemd abuses their popularity by enforcing whole ecosystem (rather then cut itself into separate pieces), that is worrying
    - JoshTriplett 2y ago
      It seems like you're attributing to perceived malice ("enforcing") what is better explained by a combination of trying to get things done and not prioritizing replaceability higher than the benefits of integration. In other words, a project that simply has different priorities. It turns out that many other people also like seeing stuff get done more so than they care whether the project in question is trivially replaceable.
Xeamek 2y ago
No. I don't like a framework that promotes using components that are arbitrary dependent on it. To use udev, I need systemd-init, and to use systemd-init I need systemd boot. I really don't believe it MUST be this way, and those requirements aren't at least partially arbitral. Why systemd refuses to run in chroot?
- BenjiWiebe 2y ago
  You don't actually need to use systems-boot to use systemd-init. They're two separate things.

bhaney 2y ago

You must absolutely despise libc

lmm 2y ago
libc has multiple independent implementations, if you don't like one you can switch to another. Software that hard-depends on a specific libc is indeed to be despised.
Xeamek 2y ago
The difference is that I can solve libc dependency at comp time (statically linked against it), while systemd dependencies require runtime support.

deadbunny 2y ago

I tried filling up a Tesla at a gas station. And now I don't like electric cars anymore.

lupusreal 2y ago
You joke but the inability of BEVs to make use of the gas station infrastructure is probably their number one obstacle to mass adoption.
- shrimp_emoji 2y ago
  You just rent some parking space for the charge pylons. Probably off to the side where the self-service wash hose/tire pump usually is.
  - vdqtp3 2y ago
    The energy bandwidth of a charger as opposed to a gas pump is a huge issue right now. Gas pumps can easily pump up to 10gpm [1], corresponding to 300 miles of charge in 3-5 minutes as opposed to Superchargers, which take 15 minutes to charge enough for 200 miles of driving[2]. When this is improved, it will make BEV's much more acceptable to many people. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_pump#Design https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_pump#Design [2] https://www.energysage.com/ev-charging/tesla-supercharger-guide/#how-charging-works-with-tesla-superchargers https://www.energysage.com/ev-charging/tesla-supercharger-gu...