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> Current cost of CO2 is ~$185/ton emitted. Wow. Back of the envelope math suggests that driving a typical passenger car 1000 miles should carry a tax of ~$75,

> Current cost of CO2 is ~$185/ton emitted. Wow. Back of the envelope math suggests that driving a typical passenger car 1000 miles should carry a tax of ~$75, which would be no small burden. At 40 mpg, gasoline cost for such a trip is less than $200 in most of the U.S. right now. Edit: actually if you assume 40 mpg the social cost of emissions is closer to $40. (Of course in practice you'd want to handle this as a tax on gasoline purchases, but that would need to be implemented federally to be effective, probably.)

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josu 2y ago
In most European countries gasoline is taxed at more than 100% (or 50% of the price), so it seems that at least for passenger cars, the externalities are mostly mitigated.
- IshKebab 2y ago
  Not really though because the money from fuel tax doesn't actually go into helping the environment.
  - robertlagrant 2y ago
    Well, it's being paid. Maybe it's not being used well, but it's being paid.
  - josu 2y ago
    Kind off. You don't need to spend the tax money helping the environment, you just need to restitute whatever utility those affected by the negative externality have lost. For example, people may be willing to accept an increase in CO2 in exchange of a direct transfer of $100 per ton emitted. Assuming that tax money is being used effectively (lol), the negative externality could completely disappear with the right tax level. You could even turn driving into a positive externality if the tax is high enough, while still polluting.
neon_electro 2y ago
I tried to emulate the math you showed, my Chevrolet Bolt EV emits 96g CO2 per mile when considering upstream emissions on the New Jersey electrical grid, my carbon tax on 96kg emissions per 1000 miles would be $17.76. Does that sound right to you?
- bscphil 2y ago
  Seems about right. The EPA uses a conversion factor of 8887 g CO2 emitted per gallon of gasoline consumed. [1] Assuming 40 miles per gallon, as above, that's ~222 grams per mile for the theoretical ICE car, a little over 2x the emissions of your electric vehicle. Incidentally, 2023 Bolt specs [2] indicate an efficiency of about 4 miles per kWh, and the EPA reference above states a typical US grid efficiency of 4.17 × 10^-4 metric tons CO2/kWh. This gives us 15.38 km per kg CO2. So ~105 kg of CO2 would be released by driving a Bolt for 1000 miles on typical grid sources. [3] I'm surprised to learn the US grid is this inefficient. In theory, an ICE car with an efficiency of 85 mpg would emit less CO2 than an electric car. Obviously that's not reachable at this point, but a hybrid like a Prius that can hit 57 mpg cuts it a lot closer than I would've thought. [1] https://www.epa.gov/energy/greenhouse-gases-equivalencies-calculator-calculations-and-references https://www.epa.gov/energy/greenhouse-gases-equivalencies-ca... [2] https://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/vehicles/bolt-ev/2023.tab1.html https://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/vehicles/b... [3] https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=1000+miles+%2F+%28259+miles+%2F+65+kWh+%2F+%284.17+%C3%97+10%5E-4+metric+tons+%2FkWh%29%29 https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=1000+miles+%2F+%28259+m...

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josu 2y ago

In most European countries gasoline is taxed at more than 100% (or 50% of the price), so it seems that at least for passenger cars, the externalities are mostly mitigated.

IshKebab 2y ago
Not really though because the money from fuel tax doesn't actually go into helping the environment.
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  Well, it's being paid. Maybe it's not being used well, but it's being paid.
- josu 2y ago
  Kind off. You don't need to spend the tax money helping the environment, you just need to restitute whatever utility those affected by the negative externality have lost. For example, people may be willing to accept an increase in CO2 in exchange of a direct transfer of $100 per ton emitted. Assuming that tax money is being used effectively (lol), the negative externality could completely disappear with the right tax level. You could even turn driving into a positive externality if the tax is high enough, while still polluting.

neon_electro 2y ago

I tried to emulate the math you showed, my Chevrolet Bolt EV emits 96g CO2 per mile when considering upstream emissions on the New Jersey electrical grid, my carbon tax on 96kg emissions per 1000 miles would be $17.76. Does that sound right to you?

bscphil 2y ago
Seems about right. The EPA uses a conversion factor of 8887 g CO2 emitted per gallon of gasoline consumed. [1] Assuming 40 miles per gallon, as above, that's ~222 grams per mile for the theoretical ICE car, a little over 2x the emissions of your electric vehicle. Incidentally, 2023 Bolt specs [2] indicate an efficiency of about 4 miles per kWh, and the EPA reference above states a typical US grid efficiency of 4.17 × 10^-4 metric tons CO2/kWh. This gives us 15.38 km per kg CO2. So ~105 kg of CO2 would be released by driving a Bolt for 1000 miles on typical grid sources. [3] I'm surprised to learn the US grid is this inefficient. In theory, an ICE car with an efficiency of 85 mpg would emit less CO2 than an electric car. Obviously that's not reachable at this point, but a hybrid like a Prius that can hit 57 mpg cuts it a lot closer than I would've thought. [1] https://www.epa.gov/energy/greenhouse-gases-equivalencies-calculator-calculations-and-references https://www.epa.gov/energy/greenhouse-gases-equivalencies-ca... [2] https://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/vehicles/bolt-ev/2023.tab1.html https://media.chevrolet.com/media/us/en/chevrolet/vehicles/b... [3] https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=1000+miles+%2F+%28259+miles+%2F+65+kWh+%2F+%284.17+%C3%97+10%5E-4+metric+tons+%2FkWh%29%29 https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=1000+miles+%2F+%28259+m...