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“ continued layoffs have even worse optics, given Tesla’s move to ask shareholders for a $55 billion payout for its CEO just days after firing 14,000 people. Th
by mint2 2y ago
“ continued layoffs have even worse optics, given Tesla’s move to ask shareholders for a $55 billion payout for its CEO just days after firing 14,000 people. That $55 billion could pay for 40 years worth of six-figure salaries for those employees.”
Musk is detached from reality. He seems to think firing most of X is a resounding success and Tesla, a car manufacturing company, needs to do the same. Also that cost cutting and performance reviews only apply to others, just like in Twitter and elsewhere free speech means his speech not critics.
I really hope he doesn’t wreck spaceX too.
- enraged_camel 2y ago>> I really hope he doesn’t wreck spaceX too. I think SpaceX is one disaster away from suffering the same fate, to be honest. Like, if the next Starship doesn't make it as far as the previous attempt (for example, if it blows up on the way up), Elon is going to come in like a wrecking ball. The pressure on the SpaceX team must be immense.
- thejazzman 2y agoOnce he rage fires Shotwell.. and given how insane that would be only validates its likelihood at this point
- treme 2y agoyou seem naive. SpaceX has made it to MI complex status, and US gov will easily bail them out should worst come.
- funac 2y ago> SpaceX has made it to MI complex status, and US gov will easily bail them out should worst come. immaterial: "the worst" here is elon destroying the engineering culture & with it their ability to keep improving on what they've done so far. not going bankrupt (by way of a bailout or otherwise) is a necessary condition for avoiding the worst (boeing syndrome), but it's not sufficient fedgov can pour money into the military industrial complex, but it can't do a whole lot more, and that only goes so far
- mjhay 2y agoBoeing destroyed its engineering culture and it isn't going anywhere.
- bunderbunder 2y agoSuppose for the sake of argument I managed to secure some sort of annuity that pays just enough to subsist on, starting now. Knowing that I'm guaranteed enough income to stay minimally solvent does not mean I have no reason to care about losing additional income streams that enable me to have things like vacations and dinners at nice restaurants and digital watches. Similarly, the relative security of the ~1/3 of Boeing's revenue that comes from government contracts is probably small consolation to its shareholders. They do that business more-or-less at cost; essentially 100% of their profits come from other sources.
- htrp 2y ago>They do that business more-or-less at cost; Aren't all govt contracts cost plus?
- lesuorac 2y agoDevelopmental contracts sure. Buying COTS products; probably not.
- bunderbunder 2y agoAlso, the "plus" part covers both overhead and profit. So, depending on what your overhead situation looks like, profit can still be minimal or non-positive.
- lesuorac 2y agoSure but the "plus" part is capped [1] for cost+plus. If you're buying AWS compute through GSA I bet the rate is more than AWS's costs + 10/15%. Or if you purchase say post-it notes from Staples; I bet they're going to be way more than the cost of paper+glue*1.15. [1]: https://www.acquisition.gov/far/15.404-4#FAR_15_404_4__d941e98 https://www.acquisition.gov/far/15.404-4#FAR_15_404_4__d941e...
- janalsncm 2y agoIn other words, Space X will exist as long as there are no competitors. That gives them years, not decades.
- mjhay 2y agoSpaceX is in a much more solid position. You can tell that Musk hasn't interfered in its operations nearly as much as he has with Tesla or X (case in point: renaming it "X").
- bunderbunder 2y agoI gather that SpaceX, too, is cash flow negative and heavily invested in moonshot bets. Meaning that, like for Elon's other companies, they might be in an incredibly vulnerable position, financially speaking. A disaster could sink the company. But simply failing to have some of these risky bets pay off could be just as damaging. For example, even if everything in the plan works on a technical level, if there isn't enough demand for Starlink's service to support the whole Starlink 2 project then that might turn the entire Starlink 2 project, including the Starship rocket they need to launch these larger satellites, into a big money loser. Not entirely unlike how we're seeing signs that Tesla may not be a sustainable business, not necessarily because of anything fundamentally wrong with their core business, but because they made some over-aggressive assumptions about how many golden eggs their goose would lay.
- petre 2y ago> there isn't enough demand for Starlink's service to support the whole Starlink 2 project then that might turn the entire Starlink 2 project, including the Starship rocket they need to launch these larger satellites, into a big money loser I'm wouldn't worry too much. Uncle Sam probably wants those capabilities anyway for the SDA to ramp up the NDSA now that the Russian nuclear threat is renewed. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Development_Agency https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Development_Agency
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- lamontcg 2y agoI think the SpaceX disaster is more likely to be a loss of crew event.
- animex 2y ago$10,000 bonus PER CAR that Tesla has sold in its LIFETIME.
- citizen_friend 2y agoDid everyone forget how growth valuations work? Also that amount was from a contract made in 2018.
- bunderbunder 2y agoI don't think I've ever known how growth valuations work. Sometimes I feel like the person watching the parade and wondering why nobody else is confused by the emperor's choice of attire.
- citizen_friend 2y agoTesla now sells as many cars in a year as it did in its whole lifetime up to 2018. So that’s why it was worth paying Elon that much. The current sales position is tremendous.
- svnt 2y agoThe current sales position is 1/6 of Volkswagen.
- latency-guy2 2y agoTesla outsells Volkswagen 8 - 16x.
- reitzensteinm 2y agohttps://cleantechnica.com/2024/02/06/tesla-still-1-in-world-bev-sales-2023-world-ev-sales-report/ https://cleantechnica.com/2024/02/06/tesla-still-1-in-world-... Worldwide BEV sales 2023: VW Group - 742k Tesla - 1,808k That's 2.5x, how did you get 8-16x?
- EA-3167 2y agoHe's personally very wealthy, seems to have some mental issues, and has admitted to having a ketamine habit (although he also claims it's good for share prices). That's a combination that would make pretty much anyone struggle with attachment to reality. The takeaway for me is that as a fundraiser and hype man, before he ruined his reputation, he was pretty successful, but in all other ways he's a massive self-promoting hack.
- rchaud 2y agoHe wasn't really talked about as a hype man before, was he? The world is full of them: Adam Neumann, Travis Kalanick come to mind. The hagification of Musk in the press was on another level, like Steve Jobs, DaVinci and Obama rolled together. That this carefully crafted illusion is falling apart due to his online ramblings and bizarre business decisions is something worthy of study. He and Kanye West share a very similar trajectory in this regard.
- dzhiurgis 2y ago> ketamine habit I don't think you've ever seen anyone with ketamine habit (keywords: UK k-hole). Pretty stupid thing to say about someone who has medical prescription for ketamine to treat depression while they work 100hrs per week.
- EA-3167 2y agoMaybe working 100 hours a week to the point that you need ketamine to cope isn't a very bright idea. Based on the Cybertruck and "X", it's easy to see that this wouldn't be his first less-than-stellar move on the old 3D chess board.
- TylerE 2y agoI was gonna say that doesn't math then I realized it's billions not millions. That's over $30,000 for every single car Tesla sold in 2023.
- leereeves 2y agoIt's not a cash payout. It's a stock grant that was worth a lot less when it was originally authorized. It's a weird situation. It sounds like an unconscionable amount now only because of Musk's success in raising the stock value. Like he's being paid too much because he was too successful.
- remus 2y agoThe size of the payout was linked to stock growth targets, so when the pay deal was agreed it would have been clear it would be worth a massive amount if the stock growth targets were hit.
- Modified3019 2y agoOh wow I ended up reading it at millions as well. Likely because 55 billion wasn’t within the real of belief.
- TylerE 2y agoRight - I can remember when basically the only number that hit was Microsoft’s market cap.
- pie420 2y agowow i didn't know that tesla only existed in 2023, and all past and future years dont exist
- TylerE 2y agoBonuses are typically annual.
- s1artibartfast 2y agoTo be clear, the 55 billion is a request to re-authorize his compensation for 2018-2022 that Delaware courts invalidated.
- toast0 2y agoThe shareholders that will be voting to reauthorize are not the same shareholders that voted to authorize it originally. I'm not a direct shareholder, but if the Deleware court gives me an option not to pay $55 Billion that I thought was committed, I'd strongly consider. What are the implications of not approving? On the plus side, the company keeps the compensation. On the minus side, Musk will be upset; and there's a trust issue for future compensation. On the neutral side, those receiving future compensation will endeavour to follow an approval process that is likely to stand up in court.
- s1artibartfast 2y agoI think the incentives are the same if the shareholders are the same or not. You covered the implications as I understand it.
- tacticalturtle 2y agoIs it really a minus if Musk is upset? If he’s upset enough to leave, that seems like a potentially beneficial outcome. There’s got to be some measurable number of people who are turned off from buying a Tesla because of his association, especially now that alternatives are available.
- EduardoBautista 2y agoTesla’s current valuation is pretty much thanks to him. His personality meme stocked the company to a valuation that made no sense.
- janalsncm 2y agoIf I’m a shareholder, I don’t want an overly inflated stock price. I want a high stock price due to solid fundamentals. Tesla was temporarily extremely overvalued, but has since lost 60% of its market cap. It’s likely still overvalued compared with peers. It’s a car company, not a b2b SaaS company. Put another way, which company is more likely to exist in 10 years: Microsoft or Tesla?
- onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago> Musk is detached from reality. Musk is arguing that paying him $55B to pump the stock price is better than paying those employees for 40 years. If you're a shareholder that only cares about the stock price and not the underlying value of the company - that's a decent argument. I wouldn't buy it. But maybe the shareholders will.
- kazen44 2y agothe fact that this argument is logical in the current economic systems says so much about the sad state of the way we structure our economy...
- onlyrealcuzzo 2y agoMeme stocks are as old as time.
- renegade-otter 2y agoIt's a way to inject "office heroics" via fear, but it also has its limits. Once the burnout sets in, everyone is just part of the death march at that point, seeing the product or the company to its slow demise.
- brutus1213 2y agoI think a sad part of the calculus is there are lots of bodies willing to be thrown in the grinder. The only danger is a real competitor with a different business model that lets them treat people better. Case in point is AWS. I've been reading they are a PIP factory for the last couple of years. Doesn't seem like they have a major issue hiring (partly due to lack of a competitor who is doing better).
- leereeves 2y agoI wonder if there's a slight possibility that Musk stopped caring about Tesla's long term success when his payment was cancelled, and he is now willing to temporarily inflate the price and dump the stock.
- rchaud 2y agoI imagine he staked quite a bit of Tesla stock as collateral for the many billions in loans still owed for the Twitter purchase. If the stock value declines too much (down 35% this year), his creditors will want a higher interest rate to reflect the higher risk of default.
- ryandrake 2y agoThis is one of those things that Software Engineers don't believe until there is an extended Bear market: There is always a line of eager beavers outside your company's door just waiting to take your place if you leave. The last decade (especially the hot job market of 2020-2022) lulled everyone into a feeling of job security and even irreplaceability.
- deleted 2y ago
- unsupp0rted 2y ago> He seems to think firing most of X is a resounding success Isn’t it? I use X every day and it seems to be fine now and getting better on a good cadence.
- lesuorac 2y agoDo you pay for X? Last I heard he's hemorrhaging paying customers (advertisers) who while publicly say it has to do with <insert popular issue>; privately say it has to do with worsening ROI (targeting).
- mint2 2y agoIs that why fidelity repeatedly writes down the value of their portion of the needlessly name changed company that hemorrhaged advertisers due his personal quirky decisions and favored groups?
- unsupp0rted 2y agoIt sounds like you’re talking about a different topic. I’m saying the platform seems to be good and getting better, not worse.
- mint2 2y agoIs it? I used to find myself looking at Twitter due to the large number of places linking to it and orgs posting on it. Like the local earthquake tracker on Twitter used to be great, it became unusable after musk mayhem as Twitter intentionally only showed many years old posts to those not signed in. Nowadays that’s super rare. And I used to remember seeing links to a lot of articles published as like 13 tweets, I can’t even remember the last time I saw one of those. I think some used to be linked form HN. Twitter is basically a zombie now. It’s way worse for the former user base at large. It’s true that one groups probably think it’s better, those who were banned and are allowed back for example and those who liked the banned accounts.
- babypuncher 2y agoIs it getting better? The bots have only gotten worse. They even have blue checkmarks[1] and the company does fuck all about it. And that's before we start talking about the massive hypocrisy present in Musk's implementation of "free speech". 1. https://i.postimg.cc/Bbq0yX4J/image.png https://i.postimg.cc/Bbq0yX4J/image.png
- matthewdgreen 2y ago> I really hope he doesn’t wreck spaceX too. We don't really need Tesla or Twitter/X. But we really do need SpaceX. He's already moved it to Texas to shield himself from lawsuits, so I wouldn't count on it surviving intact.
- johnthescott 2y ago> so I wouldn't count on it surviving intact. why?
- yumraj 2y ago> Musk is detached from reality. Don’t think so, it’s just that he’s focused on another reality - losing the crown of the richest person in the world. And, he’s doing everything to keep that crown, everything else be dammed.
- highwaylights 2y agoYou either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become Russ Hanneman
- Sohcahtoa82 2y agoSide note: The "Tres Comas" Tequila is actually pretty good. Surprising that it's been 4 1/2 years since it debuted as a promo for the show and they're still making it today, years after the show ended.
- r00fus 2y agoHe's #3 behind Jeff Bezos and the Bernard Arnault. That was before Tesla's very bad month.
- cbeach 2y ago[flagged]
- constantcrying 2y agoThe claim about pay is a complete lie. Musk doesn't demand money, he demands control. The alleged money he asks for does not exist, it is just shares in Tesla, which are currently owned by the company. It's bizarre how misinformed these Journalists are, the real story is far more interesting then just Musk being greedy.