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Are you asking what the root cause of obesity is? It's eating too much and not exercising enough. It's not some mystery. Or is the question about why people beh

Are you asking what the root cause of obesity is? It's eating too much and not exercising enough. It's not some mystery. Or is the question about why people behave in this self-destructive way? People on average are bad at impulse control. Snack companies take advantage. People feel varying levels of discomfort vs exhilaration when exercising. For some it ultimately feels nice, for some it is unpleasant. Of those for whom it is unpleasant only some have the forethought and leeway to establish and maintain a healthy lifestyle. Of those for whom it is pleasant some face time or schedueling contraints that make an active lifestyle difficult. If there's a root cause to be fixed its that the human body responds poorly to acting on its impulses in our current built environment. You can solve that by altering the environment, the body, or the impulses. Ozempic seems to work by altering the impulses.

Almondsetat 3y ago
>You can solve that by altering the environment, the body, or the impulses. Incorrect. You patch that by altering the environment OR the body OR or the impulses. To fix that you need to alter all 3
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > To fix that you need to alter all 3 We have tons of evidence to the contrary in multiple disciplines. Like, have you never made a conscious dietary change?
  - Almondsetat 3y ago
    Most dietary changes fail, I don't think that's a good example actually. In any case, yes I have, but the only time it has worked was when I changed my environment (stopped slouching at home bored with a full pantry) and my impulses (filled my days with activities so that boredom hunger wouldn't strike). Only changing one would make me last a couple of weeks max
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > Only changing one would make me last a couple of weeks max Different people struggle with different impulses. I don’t have much trouble permanently modifying my diet. I struggle, on the other hand, with keeping a normal sleep schedule.
VS1999 3y ago
"Impulses" here means the mind. Medication with side effects also effect the body. You're giving three options of altering the mind, body, or environment. On principle I'm against altering the mind and body of millions of people because their environment is shitty. This also doesn't buy anyone any time, it just makes it the new "baseline" normal as companies and society adapt around it like these snack companies you're saying take advantage of people.
- idle_zealot 3y ago
  Assuming the change really is just limited to being less suseptible to cravings for unhealthy foods, I don't see an issue. That's a big "if" thought. And yeah, fixing the environment in this case would just be a matter of the FDA or regional equivalent resticting the sale and advertising of unhealthy foods, which personally I view the same as anti-smoking laws and would be all for, but the current regulatory climate makes that seem extremely unlikely.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- maxerickson 3y ago
  Your principle as stated doesn't apply to a situation where individuals have the agency, which I think is a fair assessment of a drug that they choose to take. They are examining their environment and making a choice, not having their mind and body altered by some exterior force. Which isn't to say that the overall idea of trying to find other ways to make obesity less common is bad, it just isn't a coherent argument for that.
ericd 3y ago
I eat as much as I want and don’t exercise enough, why am I far from obese? I’m currently scarfing down tortilla chips and guacamole. To me, that suggests that maybe that simplistic (and frequently repeated) mental model is inaccurate or insufficient in some way. My working theory is that most Americans’ gut microbiome is massively screwed up due to some combination of genetic, dietary, and environmental factors, and it changes what they crave, and how their body reacts to the food they eat. But I’m very much a layman on this topic.
- nradov 3y ago
  Stating that you eat as much as you want is meaningless. How many kcal/day is that exactly? Most people are terrible at estimating their calorie intake.
  - ericd 3y ago
    No idea, don’t care to know. I drink a huge amount of whole milk, eat lots of cheese, dark chocolate, etc, etc, so I’m sure it’s not a small number of calories. The point was that I’m eating as much as I want, and not restraining myself at all, so it’s not a matter of willpower or anything like that. I don’t have to fight cravings to stay thin, and I’m not a spring chicken with a super fast metabolism, so there’s clearly some other difference. People putting it down to eating less are parroting the food equivalent of abstinence-based sex education, and we’ve been drumming on that for like the last 30 years. We have to find what’s making people want to eat to excess, not just tell people to eat less and exercise more. That obviously doesn’t work.
    - nradov 3y ago
      I'm putting it down to eating less. Regardless of what you think you're eating the reality is that your metabolism and digestion (gut microbiome or whatever) is nothing special. If you actually measure and weigh everything you consume, you'll find the total calories are in the normal range for someone your size. If you think that there's something else going on, then let's see some hard data.
Guid_NewGuid 3y ago
But (inserting my own narrative), isn't the point that some deeper societal problem is being masked by this? > Snack companies take advantage. I'm uncomfortable with these new drugs but they seem to be a net positive so this is a good thing. But we should also look into legislating junk food companies that hijack people's appetite for a quick buck. Chile banned sugary food TV advertising to children and saw a roughly 10% drop in purchases high in sugar. An unleashed free market in food has been shown to be harmful and the drugs alone are insufficient. Regulation is necessary. https://healthpolicy-watch.news/chiles-comprehensive-food-policy/ https://healthpolicy-watch.news/chiles-comprehensive-food-po...
ilikecakeandpie 3y ago
> It's eating too much and not exercising enough. At the very base this is mostly true but it's like saying the reason people die is because they stop living. Framing it as people behaving "in this self-destructive way" also isn't helpful because being obese isn't a moral failing. The true answer is more complex. At least in the US, consumers have been fighting deceptive marketing/branding for things that have been claimed to be healthy choices but are full of sugar and unrealistic serving sizes. Combine that with unhealthy foods generally being cheaper and/or easier to cook and now more accessible/easier healthy eating also has class issues. Exercise does too as most of the places where obesity is most concentrated in the US (the Southeast) doesn't have walkable cities or sidewalks at all. This has been a common comment left on HN of "it's just move more, eat less" and yeah, at a fundamental level, sure, but really doesn't take into account how difficult it can be for a person that's in that situation.

Almondsetat 3y ago

>You can solve that by altering the environment, the body, or the impulses. Incorrect. You patch that by altering the environment OR the body OR or the impulses. To fix that you need to alter all 3

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> To fix that you need to alter all 3 We have tons of evidence to the contrary in multiple disciplines. Like, have you never made a conscious dietary change?
- Almondsetat 3y ago
  Most dietary changes fail, I don't think that's a good example actually. In any case, yes I have, but the only time it has worked was when I changed my environment (stopped slouching at home bored with a full pantry) and my impulses (filled my days with activities so that boredom hunger wouldn't strike). Only changing one would make me last a couple of weeks max
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > Only changing one would make me last a couple of weeks max Different people struggle with different impulses. I don’t have much trouble permanently modifying my diet. I struggle, on the other hand, with keeping a normal sleep schedule.

VS1999 3y ago

"Impulses" here means the mind. Medication with side effects also effect the body. You're giving three options of altering the mind, body, or environment. On principle I'm against altering the mind and body of millions of people because their environment is shitty. This also doesn't buy anyone any time, it just makes it the new "baseline" normal as companies and society adapt around it like these snack companies you're saying take advantage of people.

idle_zealot 3y ago
Assuming the change really is just limited to being less suseptible to cravings for unhealthy foods, I don't see an issue. That's a big "if" thought. And yeah, fixing the environment in this case would just be a matter of the FDA or regional equivalent resticting the sale and advertising of unhealthy foods, which personally I view the same as anti-smoking laws and would be all for, but the current regulatory climate makes that seem extremely unlikely.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
maxerickson 3y ago
Your principle as stated doesn't apply to a situation where individuals have the agency, which I think is a fair assessment of a drug that they choose to take. They are examining their environment and making a choice, not having their mind and body altered by some exterior force. Which isn't to say that the overall idea of trying to find other ways to make obesity less common is bad, it just isn't a coherent argument for that.

ericd 3y ago

I eat as much as I want and don’t exercise enough, why am I far from obese? I’m currently scarfing down tortilla chips and guacamole. To me, that suggests that maybe that simplistic (and frequently repeated) mental model is inaccurate or insufficient in some way. My working theory is that most Americans’ gut microbiome is massively screwed up due to some combination of genetic, dietary, and environmental factors, and it changes what they crave, and how their body reacts to the food they eat. But I’m very much a layman on this topic.

nradov 3y ago
Stating that you eat as much as you want is meaningless. How many kcal/day is that exactly? Most people are terrible at estimating their calorie intake.
- ericd 3y ago
  No idea, don’t care to know. I drink a huge amount of whole milk, eat lots of cheese, dark chocolate, etc, etc, so I’m sure it’s not a small number of calories. The point was that I’m eating as much as I want, and not restraining myself at all, so it’s not a matter of willpower or anything like that. I don’t have to fight cravings to stay thin, and I’m not a spring chicken with a super fast metabolism, so there’s clearly some other difference. People putting it down to eating less are parroting the food equivalent of abstinence-based sex education, and we’ve been drumming on that for like the last 30 years. We have to find what’s making people want to eat to excess, not just tell people to eat less and exercise more. That obviously doesn’t work.
  - nradov 3y ago
    I'm putting it down to eating less. Regardless of what you think you're eating the reality is that your metabolism and digestion (gut microbiome or whatever) is nothing special. If you actually measure and weigh everything you consume, you'll find the total calories are in the normal range for someone your size. If you think that there's something else going on, then let's see some hard data.

Guid_NewGuid 3y ago

But (inserting my own narrative), isn't the point that some deeper societal problem is being masked by this? > Snack companies take advantage. I'm uncomfortable with these new drugs but they seem to be a net positive so this is a good thing. But we should also look into legislating junk food companies that hijack people's appetite for a quick buck. Chile banned sugary food TV advertising to children and saw a roughly 10% drop in purchases high in sugar. An unleashed free market in food has been shown to be harmful and the drugs alone are insufficient. Regulation is necessary. https://healthpolicy-watch.news/chiles-comprehensive-food-policy/ https://healthpolicy-watch.news/chiles-comprehensive-food-po...

ilikecakeandpie 3y ago

> It's eating too much and not exercising enough. At the very base this is mostly true but it's like saying the reason people die is because they stop living. Framing it as people behaving "in this self-destructive way" also isn't helpful because being obese isn't a moral failing. The true answer is more complex. At least in the US, consumers have been fighting deceptive marketing/branding for things that have been claimed to be healthy choices but are full of sugar and unrealistic serving sizes. Combine that with unhealthy foods generally being cheaper and/or easier to cook and now more accessible/easier healthy eating also has class issues. Exercise does too as most of the places where obesity is most concentrated in the US (the Southeast) doesn't have walkable cities or sidewalks at all. This has been a common comment left on HN of "it's just move more, eat less" and yeah, at a fundamental level, sure, but really doesn't take into account how difficult it can be for a person that's in that situation.