6 ms·

>Critics say forced sedation should be strictly limited or banned, arguing the medications, given without consent, are too risky to be administered during polic

>Critics say forced sedation should be strictly limited or banned, arguing the medications, given without consent, are too risky to be administered during police encounters. I've been a volunteer EMT for 20 years and in that time I've been punched, cut, choked, and bit on multiple occasions-- and I'm in one of the most affluent counties in the US. People in poorer areas have it 10x worse than I do. I'm a very tall, very strong, fully grown adult man. Most of the paramedics I work with are very small, not particularly strong, women. Practically everyone I work with is young. If forced sedation is banned the critical nationwide shortage of EMS personnel will become much worse than it already is. Have you ever had a 30-year-old man who's lying on the ground bleeding behind a vape shop at 3am try to repeatedly bite you every time you come within biting distance? It's either: I hold him down and the medic gives him 5mg of midazolam or he's the cop's problem.

tacocataco 3y ago
[flagged]
- bequanna 3y ago
  Prevention of what? Regardless of what we do, there will be people who are out of control and pose a danger to others. That will never go away.
- llamaimperative 3y ago
  Step 1. Solve the precariousness of existing on planet earth Step 2. Emergency medical personnel no longer in fear of bites
lfmunoz4 3y ago
I don't get it why must be he sedated? Shouldn't he have the right to refuse service?
- bastawhiz 3y ago
  Presumably the vape shop owner wants the person gone, and so the cop then gets involved to remove them by force. Arguably, if medication isn't used, the outcome will be worse for everyone involved. Can a mentally unfit person be shot by a cop for trying to bite them? Yes.
  - giraffe_lady 3y ago
    I have to squint a little but I think I can see another problem here.
- snakeyjake 3y ago
  It is professional negligence to abandon a patient with altered mental status.
zeteo 3y ago
I'm sure there are legitimate cases where sedation is reasonably the best available solution. The problem is - who draws the line? There was a case the other day where a university professor was tackled to the ground, her head hitting the cement, and forcefully handcuffed because she had tapped a police officer on the shoulder asking him to stop what he was doing to a student. She was booked for assaulting a police officer, which is clearly a "combative" thing to do. Do you think the officer who tackled her down and then climbed on top of her should also have the authority to inject her with a sedative at his discretion? Do you think that, in an environment where simply not following directions promptly to the full satisfaction of the arresting officer can result in being tased or even shot, law enforcement also needs to be able to sedate people whenever they find it appropriate?
- bastawhiz 3y ago
  > Do you think the officer who tackled her down and then climbed on top of her should also have the authority to inject her with a sedative at his discretion? The person you're replying to is, assuming they're not lying, a medical professional. > Do you think that, in an environment where simply not following directions promptly to the full satisfaction of the arresting officer can result in being tased or even shot Are you suggesting that a person trying to bite folks is on equal legal footing with a college professor tapping an officer on the shoulder? In any case, sedatives are unquestionably less lethal than guns (and probably tasers, where Google suggests hundreds of people die in the US from being tased by the police each year). Putting aside whether the officer's discretion in such a situation is being wielded appropriately, sedation (by the numbers) is essentially never a worse option than what police have at their disposal already, no?
  - NewJazz 3y ago
    The person you're replying to is, assuming they're not lying, a medical professional. Medical professional, sure... But not a doctor. Not a nurse. And often facing immense pressure from LEO (even nurses get pressured). Are you suggesting that a person trying to bite folks is on equal legal footing with a college professor tapping an officer on the shoulder? You missed the whole point.
felsokning 3y ago
> If forced sedation is banned the critical nationwide shortage of EMS personnel will become much worse than it already is. Nationwide shortage gets worse because people can't kill other people without consequence? Fine. At least I won't be worked on by people that have no concern[s] about killing someone - just because they're scared. To whit: What is the point in being an EMT/EMS, if you do not care if you're killing people, as is demonstrated by the article? It seems entirely antithetical to the entire point of your role/job, does it not?
- ImJamal 3y ago
  You should reread the post. He is saying it is basically impossible for to help certain people without sedating them. That means they WILL die. Instead they could sedate a person and they MAY die. Your policy would result in more deaths.
  - felsokning 3y ago
    > You should reread the post. Did you RTFA? Are EMTs/EMSs - entirely - incapable of telling police to not put their body weight on the backs of "certain people" (to use your vernacular), which clearly contributes to the issue of them dying -- negating the levels of the drug being another contributing factor? There is shared culpability in these scenarios but, sure, no one could handle these people for hundreds of years before sedation was used, so they killed them all, right? That's your and the OP's rationale, from what you're saying. > Your policy would result in more deaths. My policy? More deaths? Give me the numbers/statistics on how this policy has saved _more_ lives. I'll wait...
    - ImJamal 3y ago
      I'm not sure what you are even saying. This has nothing to do with police or putting body weight on a person. If anything not using sedatives would lead to more EMTs putting body weight on people.
8372049 3y ago
As a citizen of a civilized country with properly funded and educated emergency services, it's baffling to me that the US faces these relatively simple problems. In my country, a police patrol would respond along with the ambulance. The three officers would restrain the person if necessary. Since there are three of them in a patrol car, since they have proper equipment (and don't carry firearms) and proper training, they don't have to hurt anyone to restrain the person and let the medics do their jobs.
- DamnYuppie 3y ago
  How big is your country? How diverse is its population? These things matter.
  - micromacrofoot 3y ago
    what role does diversity play
    - stavros 3y ago
      It masks the class problems of extreme wealth inequality as racial problems so that potential solutions focus on the wrong thing, and the targets are middle-class white people instead of ultra-rich people of any race.
      - micromacrofoot 3y ago
        so in the US middle class white people are seen as the problem instead of ultra rich minorities?
        stavros 3y ago
        Notice how you fell into the race trap again, even though I said "of any race". It's not "the ultra rich minorities", it's "the ultra rich, period". Race doesn't have anything to do with what is 100% a class problem. I think it's telling of how pernicious the racial propaganda is, that you changed my "of any race" to "minorities".
ameister14 3y ago
>It's either: I hold him down and the medic gives him 5mg of midazolam or he's the cop's problem. That's unacceptably dangerous without knowing what drugs the bleeding person is on. Even alcohol makes the risks of giving midazolam increase significantly.
- tuatoru 3y ago
  So... taze him and then cosh him instead?
- snakeyjake 3y ago
  > Even alcohol makes the risks of giving midazolam increase significantly. It's either that or he bleeds to death. The only contraindications for midazolam in my protocols are: (1) Hypotension (See below for ET bucking) (2) Known hypersensitivity to midazolam
dghlsakjg 3y ago
There has to be a way to make a safe protocol. In the case of Elijah McClain they gave him a 500 mg dosage when the maximum dosage was 350mg. He stopped breathing shortly thereafter Is there not some way to start with a dosage that would be safe for a smaller person and to give additional drugs if needed. Is there a way to give a drug that doesn't cause death (THC maybe)? I understand the need to calm people down, but giving them a drug that where 1/10th of a gram of error is the difference between life and death seems reckless. Simply put, if your intervention ends in death when death wasn't a possible outcome before, I would much rather that you and the cop just drive away and leave this to professionals who are able to handle this without accidentally killing people. Presumably there is somewhere on earth where this is a solved problem, what are they doing?
giraffe_lady 3y ago
This is literally the "some of you may die but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make" meme?
- snakeyjake 3y ago
  I'm not smart enough to invent a rainbow cannon that shoots wellness beams. Perhaps you are.
  - giraffe_lady 3y ago
    I don't volunteer to be in situations that I know ahead of time I can't handle without potentially lethal risk to the other participant, is the difference here. In fact I do volunteer to be in similar situations for different reasons, and part of that decision is the acknowledgement that as the only guaranteed willing participant, it is my responsibility to bear the risk of the encounter. I don't get where cops and, apparently, some EMTs find the mentality of "I choose to be here, so I may harm you to ensure my safety." Simply choose not to be there! Do something else with your evenings my man.
wtfwhateven 3y ago
are things able to restrain someone without sedating them nonexistent now?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

tacocataco 3y ago

[flagged]

bequanna 3y ago
Prevention of what? Regardless of what we do, there will be people who are out of control and pose a danger to others. That will never go away.
llamaimperative 3y ago
Step 1. Solve the precariousness of existing on planet earth Step 2. Emergency medical personnel no longer in fear of bites

lfmunoz4 3y ago

I don't get it why must be he sedated? Shouldn't he have the right to refuse service?

bastawhiz 3y ago
Presumably the vape shop owner wants the person gone, and so the cop then gets involved to remove them by force. Arguably, if medication isn't used, the outcome will be worse for everyone involved. Can a mentally unfit person be shot by a cop for trying to bite them? Yes.
- giraffe_lady 3y ago
  I have to squint a little but I think I can see another problem here.
snakeyjake 3y ago
It is professional negligence to abandon a patient with altered mental status.

zeteo 3y ago

I'm sure there are legitimate cases where sedation is reasonably the best available solution. The problem is - who draws the line? There was a case the other day where a university professor was tackled to the ground, her head hitting the cement, and forcefully handcuffed because she had tapped a police officer on the shoulder asking him to stop what he was doing to a student. She was booked for assaulting a police officer, which is clearly a "combative" thing to do. Do you think the officer who tackled her down and then climbed on top of her should also have the authority to inject her with a sedative at his discretion? Do you think that, in an environment where simply not following directions promptly to the full satisfaction of the arresting officer can result in being tased or even shot, law enforcement also needs to be able to sedate people whenever they find it appropriate?

bastawhiz 3y ago
> Do you think the officer who tackled her down and then climbed on top of her should also have the authority to inject her with a sedative at his discretion? The person you're replying to is, assuming they're not lying, a medical professional. > Do you think that, in an environment where simply not following directions promptly to the full satisfaction of the arresting officer can result in being tased or even shot Are you suggesting that a person trying to bite folks is on equal legal footing with a college professor tapping an officer on the shoulder? In any case, sedatives are unquestionably less lethal than guns (and probably tasers, where Google suggests hundreds of people die in the US from being tased by the police each year). Putting aside whether the officer's discretion in such a situation is being wielded appropriately, sedation (by the numbers) is essentially never a worse option than what police have at their disposal already, no?
- NewJazz 3y ago
  The person you're replying to is, assuming they're not lying, a medical professional. Medical professional, sure... But not a doctor. Not a nurse. And often facing immense pressure from LEO (even nurses get pressured). Are you suggesting that a person trying to bite folks is on equal legal footing with a college professor tapping an officer on the shoulder? You missed the whole point.

felsokning 3y ago

> If forced sedation is banned the critical nationwide shortage of EMS personnel will become much worse than it already is. Nationwide shortage gets worse because people can't kill other people without consequence? Fine. At least I won't be worked on by people that have no concern[s] about killing someone - just because they're scared. To whit: What is the point in being an EMT/EMS, if you do not care if you're killing people, as is demonstrated by the article? It seems entirely antithetical to the entire point of your role/job, does it not?

ImJamal 3y ago
You should reread the post. He is saying it is basically impossible for to help certain people without sedating them. That means they WILL die. Instead they could sedate a person and they MAY die. Your policy would result in more deaths.
- felsokning 3y ago
  > You should reread the post. Did you RTFA? Are EMTs/EMSs - entirely - incapable of telling police to not put their body weight on the backs of "certain people" (to use your vernacular), which clearly contributes to the issue of them dying -- negating the levels of the drug being another contributing factor? There is shared culpability in these scenarios but, sure, no one could handle these people for hundreds of years before sedation was used, so they killed them all, right? That's your and the OP's rationale, from what you're saying. > Your policy would result in more deaths. My policy? More deaths? Give me the numbers/statistics on how this policy has saved _more_ lives. I'll wait...
  - ImJamal 3y ago
    I'm not sure what you are even saying. This has nothing to do with police or putting body weight on a person. If anything not using sedatives would lead to more EMTs putting body weight on people.

8372049 3y ago

As a citizen of a civilized country with properly funded and educated emergency services, it's baffling to me that the US faces these relatively simple problems. In my country, a police patrol would respond along with the ambulance. The three officers would restrain the person if necessary. Since there are three of them in a patrol car, since they have proper equipment (and don't carry firearms) and proper training, they don't have to hurt anyone to restrain the person and let the medics do their jobs.

DamnYuppie 3y ago
How big is your country? How diverse is its population? These things matter.
- micromacrofoot 3y ago
  what role does diversity play
  - stavros 3y ago
    It masks the class problems of extreme wealth inequality as racial problems so that potential solutions focus on the wrong thing, and the targets are middle-class white people instead of ultra-rich people of any race.
    - micromacrofoot 3y ago
      so in the US middle class white people are seen as the problem instead of ultra rich minorities?
      - stavros 3y ago
        Notice how you fell into the race trap again, even though I said "of any race". It's not "the ultra rich minorities", it's "the ultra rich, period". Race doesn't have anything to do with what is 100% a class problem. I think it's telling of how pernicious the racial propaganda is, that you changed my "of any race" to "minorities".

ameister14 3y ago

>It's either: I hold him down and the medic gives him 5mg of midazolam or he's the cop's problem. That's unacceptably dangerous without knowing what drugs the bleeding person is on. Even alcohol makes the risks of giving midazolam increase significantly.

tuatoru 3y ago
So... taze him and then cosh him instead?
snakeyjake 3y ago
> Even alcohol makes the risks of giving midazolam increase significantly. It's either that or he bleeds to death. The only contraindications for midazolam in my protocols are: (1) Hypotension (See below for ET bucking) (2) Known hypersensitivity to midazolam

dghlsakjg 3y ago

There has to be a way to make a safe protocol. In the case of Elijah McClain they gave him a 500 mg dosage when the maximum dosage was 350mg. He stopped breathing shortly thereafter Is there not some way to start with a dosage that would be safe for a smaller person and to give additional drugs if needed. Is there a way to give a drug that doesn't cause death (THC maybe)? I understand the need to calm people down, but giving them a drug that where 1/10th of a gram of error is the difference between life and death seems reckless. Simply put, if your intervention ends in death when death wasn't a possible outcome before, I would much rather that you and the cop just drive away and leave this to professionals who are able to handle this without accidentally killing people. Presumably there is somewhere on earth where this is a solved problem, what are they doing?

giraffe_lady 3y ago

This is literally the "some of you may die but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make" meme?

snakeyjake 3y ago
I'm not smart enough to invent a rainbow cannon that shoots wellness beams. Perhaps you are.
- giraffe_lady 3y ago
  I don't volunteer to be in situations that I know ahead of time I can't handle without potentially lethal risk to the other participant, is the difference here. In fact I do volunteer to be in similar situations for different reasons, and part of that decision is the acknowledgement that as the only guaranteed willing participant, it is my responsibility to bear the risk of the encounter. I don't get where cops and, apparently, some EMTs find the mentality of "I choose to be here, so I may harm you to ensure my safety." Simply choose not to be there! Do something else with your evenings my man.

wtfwhateven 3y ago

are things able to restrain someone without sedating them nonexistent now?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]