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Dozens of deaths reveal risks of injecting sedatives into police detainees
- readthenotes1 2y agoI wonder how many of the victims were already under the influence of other drugs that might have had a horrible interaction (and, of course leading to the desire to subdue with drugs instead of tasers, etc.)
- retrac 2y agoA very large percent, surely. It's why barbiturates or benzodiazepines or opioids have very rarely been used for strong sedation outside of a hospital setting. One person's sedating dose is another person's lethal overdose, with even slight mixing with alcohol or prescription antianxiety medications or painkillers. It is true ketamine doesn't affect breathing as badly as those drugs, and has fewer interactions, and is sometimes used in medical emergencies for sedation when the airway is a concern. That seems to have been what gave people the idea it could be used in paramedic settings, but less is not the same as no risk.
- dolandbck 2y agoPure speculation, surely.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- sixothree 2y agoOr any prescription medication.
- heavyset_go 2y agoMillions of people are on medications that could very easily have lethal interactions with IV sedatives.
- dghlsakjg 2y agoWhich is why responsible medical practitioners get a medical history, a list of medications, and monitor people closely instead of trusting a cop to diagnose someone with "excited delirium", an affliction very much not accepted by real doctors.
- andrewstuart 2y ago[flagged]
- reindeergmz 2y ago[dead]
- qeternity 2y agoI’m with you. I have no idea how this can be legal, superhuman strength or otherwise. What the hell has happened to due process?
- aerostable_slug 2y agoWhat does due process have to do with subduing combative subjects, preventing persons from harming themselves or others, or other lawful uses of force? Due process doesn't come into whether or not a police shooting is justified, for example. Or the use of a Taser, nightstick, carotid restraint, pepper spray, or a simple arm bar.
- llamaimperative 2y agoWould you prefer that people sufficiently hopped up on drugs are allowed to run rampant over anything in civilization? Obviously an extreme scenario but the reality is that civilization must maintain order and yeah, people in general have no problem giving drugs to people who are actively attacking them. The trick, of course, is how to allow that to happen^ while also not authorizing a total descent into authoritarian rule.
- trust_bt_verify 2y agoMaybe people in these orderly civilizations should figure out how to do that with less death? Let’s push ourselves to be better here. I don’t see the suggestion made anywhere that we let society fall to rampant running drug users. Arguably this is already happening though, see Diana Kipyokei.
- 2y ago
- snakeyjake 2y ago>Critics say forced sedation should be strictly limited or banned, arguing the medications, given without consent, are too risky to be administered during police encounters. I've been a volunteer EMT for 20 years and in that time I've been punched, cut, choked, and bit on multiple occasions-- and I'm in one of the most affluent counties in the US. People in poorer areas have it 10x worse than I do. I'm a very tall, very strong, fully grown adult man. Most of the paramedics I work with are very small, not particularly strong, women. Practically everyone I work with is young. If forced sedation is banned the critical nationwide shortage of EMS personnel will become much worse than it already is. Have you ever had a 30-year-old man who's lying on the ground bleeding behind a vape shop at 3am try to repeatedly bite you every time you come within biting distance? It's either: I hold him down and the medic gives him 5mg of midazolam or he's the cop's problem.
- tacocataco 2y ago[flagged]
- bequanna 2y agoPrevention of what? Regardless of what we do, there will be people who are out of control and pose a danger to others. That will never go away.
- llamaimperative 2y agoStep 1. Solve the precariousness of existing on planet earth Step 2. Emergency medical personnel no longer in fear of bites
- lfmunoz4 2y agoI don't get it why must be he sedated? Shouldn't he have the right to refuse service?
- bastawhiz 2y agoPresumably the vape shop owner wants the person gone, and so the cop then gets involved to remove them by force. Arguably, if medication isn't used, the outcome will be worse for everyone involved. Can a mentally unfit person be shot by a cop for trying to bite them? Yes.
- ambicapter 2y agoAbsolutely fucking bonkers that it's legal to just eyeball a stranger and inject them with drugs if working under the watchful eye of a badge, that this "technique" is approved without any evidence that it actually helps. > Ho was a leading researcher on Taser safety and an expert witness for the company in wrongful death lawsuits. In a 2007 deposition in one such case, he argued for a potentially “life-saving tactic” of having sedative injections quickly follow Taser shocks, saying the combination could shorten struggles that, if prolonged, might end in death. > Some doctors at his public hospital in Minneapolis were using “something called ketamine, which is an analog to LSD,” he said. “It’s sort of an animal tranquilizer.” > The drug became more common outside the hospital in 2008 when Hennepin County paramedics were given permission to use it. > An American College of Emergency Physicians panel that included Ho said in 2009 that ketamine had shown “excellent results and safety” while acknowledging no research proved it would save lives. These people come off as a bunch of clowns, holy cow.
- jrflowers 2y ago>ketamine, which is an analog to LSD Ketamine is an LSD analog much in the same way that caffeine is an analog of C4 explosive
- banish-m4 2y agoThe police also use "mental reasons" as an excuse to arrest anyone they don't like or who challenges their egos. It's often used to cover-up uses of excessive force.
- dylan604 2y agoare you saying that their reasons were mental; aka totally bonkers logic, or that they are claiming the person has mental issues? I'll agree with the former, but if the latter, then that's even more infuriating that someone suffering gets physically assaulted because Officer Bumpkin is untrained in deescalation and only trained in ratcheting up to use of violence.
- banish-m4 2y ago
- banish-m4 2y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Elijah_McClain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Elijah_McClain Perhaps there are legitimate uses of appropriate doses where there is immediate risk of harm, but reckless and unregulated use of using serious medications like ketamine to control people violates informed consent and the spirit of the hippocratic oath.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 2y agoWithout commenting on the rest of the article I want to take issue with this specific line > Gowens rushed to the hospital 500 miles away, where she was told he’d been injected with ketamine. She searched online and was stunned to read it’s used to tranquilize horses. Medicines are used on both humans and animals all the time. Verbiage like this does nothing but spread fear, uncertainty and doubt about a medication, when used in a controlled, safe manner is absolutely helpful for humans. The fact that it’s also used as a horse tranquilizer is completely irrelevant and is really just lazy reporting intended to incite fear. Note that I am not saying I agree with the medication’s use at all here. But the fact that it’s also used on animals for some purpose is completely irrelevant.
- wmf 2y agoWe went through a similar thing a few years ago with everybody calling Iv_rm_ct_n "horse medicine". I thought it was funny at first, but it is FDA-approved for humans, just not for the purpose people wanted to use it for. Jokes and ridicule may not be a good way to convince people to trust the science.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 2y agoI had actually been thinking of this specific scenario whenever I wrote the above comment. People refer to the medication you are referencing as “horse dewormer” like it’s a bad thing - in reality it’s also a “people dewormer” as well that has been used safely as a first line anti-parasitic in humans for over 50 years.
- micromacrofoot 2y agoto be fair some people were actually trying to buy it from veterinarians
- cempaka 2y agoThat was because FDA pressure campaigns made it impossible to obtain the human formulation for off-label use. I had a prescription filled in January 2021 before it became a political hot potato. Ten months later the same pharmacy practically hung up the phone on me when I asked if I could get it filled.
- dallasmed 2y agoMost of these responses reveal a fundamental problem with individuals not realizing the limits of their knowledge. The issues with sedative administration deaths almost uniformly have nothing to do with the administration but everything to do with the assessments (or lack of) and treatments performed at the same time. In the McClain case this issue wasn't the dosing (people have frequently been given doses ten times above intended without harm) but rather the lack of monitoring of his airway. The gentleman was aspirating during the restraint prior to EMS arrival and this was not treated for some time. It makes no sense to blame a drug with an incredibly wide therapeutic index such as ketamine when the real issue is the lack of proper assessment.