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>we change the way the government is intimately entangled with our lives? I've lived in Sweden where taxes are not just automatically filed but every citizen c

>we change the way the government is intimately entangled with our lives? I've lived in Sweden where taxes are not just automatically filed but every citizen can trivially look up anyone's tax returns and nobody ever saw it as the government being intimately entangled with anyone's life. Privacy violation would be to look into how and on what you spend your money, not that everyone pays their share of taxes. That tells you nothing about what people spend their money on. Merely that they aren't avoiding paying their part. I don't see the problem with the government automatically doing my taxes or anyone being able to see that.

RiceRichardJ 3y ago
Swedish views on privacy don’t necessarily apply outside of Sweden. Are income levels not deserving of privacy?
- bedobi 3y ago
  Is your address? Your ssn? Your phone number? In Sweden, anyone can look it up. https://ratsit.se https://ratsit.se
  - dantheman 3y ago
    of course your address, phone number, income, etc should all be private just because the phone companies shared this didn't mean it's a good idea; and they always provided a way to be unlisted
    - throw0101c 3y ago
      > of course "Of course" makes it sound like it is obviously / objectively true, but it is a sentiment that is not necessarily true, either in the past, or even in the present everywhere on the planet. > your address, phone number, income, etc should all be private just because the phone companies shared this didn't mean it's a good idea This information was public in the past before the phone companies existed. May I introduce you to the concept of city directories: > A city directory is a listing of residents, streets, businesses, organizations or institutions, giving their location in a city. It may be arranged alphabetically or geographically or in other ways. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_directory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_directory > City Directories were created for salesmen, merchants, and other interested in contacting residents of an area. They are arranged alphabetically giving lists of names and addresses. These often list the adult residents of a city or area. * https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/City_Directories https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/City_Directories They can date back to (at least) the 1800s and continued into the twentieth century: > City directories were published yearly. The Archives has them from 1834 to 2001 (except for a few years in the 1830s, 1840s, and 1850s, and in 1987, when they were not published). * https://www.toronto.ca/city-government/accountability-operations-customer-service/access-city-information-or-records/city-of-toronto-archives/whats-in-the-archives/city-directories/ https://www.toronto.ca/city-government/accountability-operat...
- ForHackernews 3y ago
  > Are income levels not deserving of privacy? ... No? I don't think so, anyway. Maybe if people understood how obscenely unequal our society is, it would go part of the way toward fixing that.
- XorNot 3y ago
  The idea that they are is a construct for the benefit of employers, not workers. Even your sense that you should hide it is in service of this and the effort to get people tearing each other down is also just a good way to depress salaries.
VS1999 3y ago
That you've "lived in sweden" implies you have the luxury of hopping to whatever country suits you most. Nobody wants to hear a cosmopolitan's take on how we have too much privacy and how the government should be more involved in our lives. If the government mistreats you, you can just go to a nicer country.
- xu_ituairo 3y ago
  Your reply feels unkind. They just said they lived in Sweden for a time. I don’t think it implies luxury or that they’re a wealthy jet-setting cosmopolitan. It could be for one of many reasons. I also don’t know what’s wrong with hearing the opinion of a jet-setting cosmopolitan anyhow.
- noodlesUK 3y ago
  Around 500 million people living in the EU have that privilege. It’s pretty common for people to exercise it and in no way makes you part of the jet set.
  - VS1999 3y ago
    I see. I'm probably wrong then. In my country only the rich or elite have the opportunity to live abroad.
bedobi 3y ago
Uh plenty of Sweden see that as a huge invasion of privacy Sweden also doesn’t have secret ballot In Sweden, anyone can look up your address, phone number, social security number, your car registration etc etc This is not cool or desirable
- ghaff 3y ago
  If you own property in the US, I can look up your address, your landline if you still have one, probably not that hard to find SSN, etc.
  - ImJamal 3y ago
    If you own property in your name you could look up your address. Some people do not directly own their house though.
    - thfuran 3y ago
      Approximately 0% of people have property in a trust instead of in their own name.
  - nxm 3y ago
    The SSN is not something you should be able to find easily
- bananskalhalk 3y ago
  Secret ballot was introduced 1866 in Sweden. I think we were the third country in the world to do so.
  - bedobi 3y ago
    Sweden has never had secret ballot. The “Valmyndigheten” election authority themselves have criticized the lack of secrecy and general chaos with Sweden’s ballots. But what do they know? They only administer the elections. Swedes have a highly developed superiority complex and ability to perform mental gymnastics about the flaws of their country and ways of doing things. No sane person from any other country in the world would consider a system where voters must, in public and under the active scrutiny of other voters and local election officials (who are themselves politicians and party members) pick ballots for the party you intend to vote for and then bring it into the “secret” booth. Any child or idiot can see that’s not secret other than in the most distorted and disingenuous sense of the word.
rufus_foreman 3y ago
>> nobody ever saw it as the government being intimately entangled with anyone's life Is that true? There's no one, not one person in Sweden, who sees that as government overreach? Scary if true.
pembrook 3y ago
Except in Sweden, what this means in practice, is that you only see the income/cap gains taxes paid of ordinary middle class people. Rich people in the Nordics hold their wealth in foreign companies as retained earnings, and thus that wealth accrues gains/dividends tax free and remains invisible until they sell off a small portion for the purpose of buying something. It's "transparency" only for the plebs. Americans cannot do this, as they are subject to global tax and extra punitive taxation on foreign withheld earnings. Also, Swedes don't have the same level of real estate transparency that there is in America (property tax assessments put a public value on everyone's holdings in the US). Wealthy folks holding real estate between different countries in Europe makes the whole situation more shadowy than you might think.

RiceRichardJ 3y ago

Swedish views on privacy don’t necessarily apply outside of Sweden. Are income levels not deserving of privacy?

bedobi 3y ago
Is your address? Your ssn? Your phone number? In Sweden, anyone can look it up. https://ratsit.se https://ratsit.se
- dantheman 3y ago
  of course your address, phone number, income, etc should all be private just because the phone companies shared this didn't mean it's a good idea; and they always provided a way to be unlisted
  - throw0101c 3y ago
    > of course "Of course" makes it sound like it is obviously / objectively true, but it is a sentiment that is not necessarily true, either in the past, or even in the present everywhere on the planet. > your address, phone number, income, etc should all be private just because the phone companies shared this didn't mean it's a good idea This information was public in the past before the phone companies existed. May I introduce you to the concept of city directories: > A city directory is a listing of residents, streets, businesses, organizations or institutions, giving their location in a city. It may be arranged alphabetically or geographically or in other ways. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_directory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_directory > City Directories were created for salesmen, merchants, and other interested in contacting residents of an area. They are arranged alphabetically giving lists of names and addresses. These often list the adult residents of a city or area. * https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/City_Directories https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/City_Directories They can date back to (at least) the 1800s and continued into the twentieth century: > City directories were published yearly. The Archives has them from 1834 to 2001 (except for a few years in the 1830s, 1840s, and 1850s, and in 1987, when they were not published). * https://www.toronto.ca/city-government/accountability-operations-customer-service/access-city-information-or-records/city-of-toronto-archives/whats-in-the-archives/city-directories/ https://www.toronto.ca/city-government/accountability-operat...
ForHackernews 3y ago
> Are income levels not deserving of privacy? ... No? I don't think so, anyway. Maybe if people understood how obscenely unequal our society is, it would go part of the way toward fixing that.
XorNot 3y ago
The idea that they are is a construct for the benefit of employers, not workers. Even your sense that you should hide it is in service of this and the effort to get people tearing each other down is also just a good way to depress salaries.

VS1999 3y ago

That you've "lived in sweden" implies you have the luxury of hopping to whatever country suits you most. Nobody wants to hear a cosmopolitan's take on how we have too much privacy and how the government should be more involved in our lives. If the government mistreats you, you can just go to a nicer country.

xu_ituairo 3y ago
Your reply feels unkind. They just said they lived in Sweden for a time. I don’t think it implies luxury or that they’re a wealthy jet-setting cosmopolitan. It could be for one of many reasons. I also don’t know what’s wrong with hearing the opinion of a jet-setting cosmopolitan anyhow.
noodlesUK 3y ago
Around 500 million people living in the EU have that privilege. It’s pretty common for people to exercise it and in no way makes you part of the jet set.
- VS1999 3y ago
  I see. I'm probably wrong then. In my country only the rich or elite have the opportunity to live abroad.

bedobi 3y ago

Uh plenty of Sweden see that as a huge invasion of privacy Sweden also doesn’t have secret ballot In Sweden, anyone can look up your address, phone number, social security number, your car registration etc etc This is not cool or desirable

ghaff 3y ago
If you own property in the US, I can look up your address, your landline if you still have one, probably not that hard to find SSN, etc.
- ImJamal 3y ago
  If you own property in your name you could look up your address. Some people do not directly own their house though.
  - thfuran 3y ago
    Approximately 0% of people have property in a trust instead of in their own name.
- nxm 3y ago
  The SSN is not something you should be able to find easily
bananskalhalk 3y ago
Secret ballot was introduced 1866 in Sweden. I think we were the third country in the world to do so.
- bedobi 3y ago
  Sweden has never had secret ballot. The “Valmyndigheten” election authority themselves have criticized the lack of secrecy and general chaos with Sweden’s ballots. But what do they know? They only administer the elections. Swedes have a highly developed superiority complex and ability to perform mental gymnastics about the flaws of their country and ways of doing things. No sane person from any other country in the world would consider a system where voters must, in public and under the active scrutiny of other voters and local election officials (who are themselves politicians and party members) pick ballots for the party you intend to vote for and then bring it into the “secret” booth. Any child or idiot can see that’s not secret other than in the most distorted and disingenuous sense of the word.

rufus_foreman 3y ago

>> nobody ever saw it as the government being intimately entangled with anyone's life Is that true? There's no one, not one person in Sweden, who sees that as government overreach? Scary if true.

pembrook 3y ago

Except in Sweden, what this means in practice, is that you only see the income/cap gains taxes paid of ordinary middle class people. Rich people in the Nordics hold their wealth in foreign companies as retained earnings, and thus that wealth accrues gains/dividends tax free and remains invisible until they sell off a small portion for the purpose of buying something. It's "transparency" only for the plebs. Americans cannot do this, as they are subject to global tax and extra punitive taxation on foreign withheld earnings. Also, Swedes don't have the same level of real estate transparency that there is in America (property tax assessments put a public value on everyone's holdings in the US). Wealthy folks holding real estate between different countries in Europe makes the whole situation more shadowy than you might think.