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That's a nice history lesson but sideloading alternate appstores (namely F-Droid) on Android works great and Apple shouldn't be allowed to forbid the same on iO

That's a nice history lesson but sideloading alternate appstores (namely F-Droid) on Android works great and Apple shouldn't be allowed to forbid the same on iOS. And I don't give a damn about the "grandma conned into sideloading scam apps" scenario. Grandma is getting scammed over regular phonecalls already anyway.

glitchcrab 3y ago
So to extrapolate, you're fine with your grandma being scammed via a new avenue because she's already being scammed in other ways?
- Repulsion9513 3y ago
  So to extrapolate, you're fine with your grandma being scammed by Apple so long as she can't (but actually can) be scammed in other ways?
- disgruntledphd2 3y ago
  I think the GP regards the scams as an acceptable price to pay for additional user choice, which is a reasonable position.
  - throwaway48476 3y ago
    Scams exist because the scamming industry is a large fraction of gdp in some countries and the byzantine financial system doesn't allow for reversing charges.
  - VelesDude 3y ago
    It is also possible to keep safe guard in. You have to explicitly enable side loading side loading for instance.
- quickslowdown 3y ago
  Sure, if you only focus on that one piece of their comment, but who wants to be that pedantic?
- lupusreal 3y ago
  My grandma has an android phone and I'm fine with her having a phone that could permit her to sideload an app. Having a phone number at all is a far more serious threat, and I presume you are fine with your grandmother having one even though a scammer could talk her into giving up her bank details or buying dozens of gift cards and reading out the codes. The solution to the grandmother scenarios is to have a trusted relative that works closely with them, who they trust to copilot or handle completely all business dealings. If that's not possible, then they're at risk whether they have an iphone or android.
- nerdix 3y ago
  Or I don't think computing freedom has to be completely abandoned to protect someone's grandma. Put tight controls in place. You can make it extremely difficult to bypass. You could have a recovery mode like Android and bury the setting in there. I think that makes it sufficiently hard that you don't have to worry about a grandma being tricked into rebooting her phone while holding down a specific button combination and then navigating through a bunch of arcane menus without touch controls to enable side loading. But its enough that someone that is technically inclined and who wants that control over their device can have it.
fidotron 3y ago
So what you want is to remove the option of safety from those that want it because you personally do not see the need for it. iOS is not close to a monopoly. People are perfectly free to have Android devices and side load apps on to them. It is curious that the campaigning focuses so strongly on destroying the high trust part that exists and not on promoting a trusted setup on Android.
- jonp888 3y ago
  Erm, what? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. It's perfectly reasonable for the default setting of a phone to forbid sideloading apps. And anyone who doesn't want to can leave it that way. That's the 'option of safety'.
  - noodlesUK 3y ago
    Until such time as a big player like Epic or Facebook decides that the only way you’re getting their apps is by using a store they control and can bypass all permission controls on. When that happens it’s going to become 2000’s browser toolbars all over again
    - bigstrat2003 3y ago
      That hasn't yet happened on Android. While it might happen on iOS, it's not reasonable to assume that it will happen.
      - noodlesUK 3y ago
        It has already happened on android in the case of Epic. They require that you side load their launcher/store in order to play games such as Fortnite. There was a big lawsuit about google’s fees which precipitated this. https://www.fortnite.com/mobile/android/new-device?lang=en-US https://www.fortnite.com/mobile/android/new-device?lang=en-U...
      - jwells89 3y ago
        My hypothesis is that it’ll happen to both iOS and Android once iOS has been forced to allow third party app stores in most major markets. Why? Because historically, iOS has been the more profitable platform for mobile developers by a large margin. The payoff for building and maintaining an alternative app store for Android only is questionable, but improves significantly if the store can exist on iOS too.
stanleydrew 3y ago
> Grandma is getting scammed over regular phonecalls already anyway. This is not a good argument. Yes things aren't perfect in many areas of technology, but that doesn't mean we should give up. The better version of this argument acknowledges that there are tradeoffs: allowing side loading may introduce risk but the risk is low relative to the other risks users face and the benefits outweigh the costs.

glitchcrab 3y ago

So to extrapolate, you're fine with your grandma being scammed via a new avenue because she's already being scammed in other ways?

Repulsion9513 3y ago
So to extrapolate, you're fine with your grandma being scammed by Apple so long as she can't (but actually can) be scammed in other ways?
disgruntledphd2 3y ago
I think the GP regards the scams as an acceptable price to pay for additional user choice, which is a reasonable position.
- throwaway48476 3y ago
  Scams exist because the scamming industry is a large fraction of gdp in some countries and the byzantine financial system doesn't allow for reversing charges.
- VelesDude 3y ago
  It is also possible to keep safe guard in. You have to explicitly enable side loading side loading for instance.
quickslowdown 3y ago
Sure, if you only focus on that one piece of their comment, but who wants to be that pedantic?
lupusreal 3y ago
My grandma has an android phone and I'm fine with her having a phone that could permit her to sideload an app. Having a phone number at all is a far more serious threat, and I presume you are fine with your grandmother having one even though a scammer could talk her into giving up her bank details or buying dozens of gift cards and reading out the codes. The solution to the grandmother scenarios is to have a trusted relative that works closely with them, who they trust to copilot or handle completely all business dealings. If that's not possible, then they're at risk whether they have an iphone or android.
nerdix 3y ago
Or I don't think computing freedom has to be completely abandoned to protect someone's grandma. Put tight controls in place. You can make it extremely difficult to bypass. You could have a recovery mode like Android and bury the setting in there. I think that makes it sufficiently hard that you don't have to worry about a grandma being tricked into rebooting her phone while holding down a specific button combination and then navigating through a bunch of arcane menus without touch controls to enable side loading. But its enough that someone that is technically inclined and who wants that control over their device can have it.

fidotron 3y ago

So what you want is to remove the option of safety from those that want it because you personally do not see the need for it. iOS is not close to a monopoly. People are perfectly free to have Android devices and side load apps on to them. It is curious that the campaigning focuses so strongly on destroying the high trust part that exists and not on promoting a trusted setup on Android.

jonp888 3y ago
Erm, what? Your statement makes no sense whatsoever. It's perfectly reasonable for the default setting of a phone to forbid sideloading apps. And anyone who doesn't want to can leave it that way. That's the 'option of safety'.
- noodlesUK 3y ago
  Until such time as a big player like Epic or Facebook decides that the only way you’re getting their apps is by using a store they control and can bypass all permission controls on. When that happens it’s going to become 2000’s browser toolbars all over again
  - bigstrat2003 3y ago
    That hasn't yet happened on Android. While it might happen on iOS, it's not reasonable to assume that it will happen.
    - noodlesUK 3y ago
      It has already happened on android in the case of Epic. They require that you side load their launcher/store in order to play games such as Fortnite. There was a big lawsuit about google’s fees which precipitated this. https://www.fortnite.com/mobile/android/new-device?lang=en-US https://www.fortnite.com/mobile/android/new-device?lang=en-U...
    - jwells89 3y ago
      My hypothesis is that it’ll happen to both iOS and Android once iOS has been forced to allow third party app stores in most major markets. Why? Because historically, iOS has been the more profitable platform for mobile developers by a large margin. The payoff for building and maintaining an alternative app store for Android only is questionable, but improves significantly if the store can exist on iOS too.

stanleydrew 3y ago

> Grandma is getting scammed over regular phonecalls already anyway. This is not a good argument. Yes things aren't perfect in many areas of technology, but that doesn't mean we should give up. The better version of this argument acknowledges that there are tradeoffs: allowing side loading may introduce risk but the risk is low relative to the other risks users face and the benefits outweigh the costs.