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I don't think it's as simple as that. Some of the modern ecosystems have gone entirely bonkers (think nodejs/npm): hundreds and thousands of dependencies for t

I don't think it's as simple as that. Some of the modern ecosystems have gone entirely bonkers (think nodejs/npm): hundreds and thousands of dependencies for the simplest of things, basically an unmanageable "supply chain". Sure, we can talk about what's good approach to update and dependency hygiene, how packages should "freeze" their dependencies, how should breaking changes be communicated through version numbers (or not), but we've seen the rise of the non-NIH that can't bother to implement 5 lines of code. If you commit to update whenever there's a newer version of any dep you are using, you commit yourself to a world of pain and fighting even more bugs. I actually believe LTS repos of public repos (PyPI, NPM, ...) could be a decent way to earn some money in today's dependency-heavy world.

taneq 3y ago
This overacceptance of external dependencies and compatibility-breaking API changes all started with the shift from software-as-product to software-as-a-service. Honestly it feels like the resulting churn and busywork is on some level a deliberate ploy to create more job security for software devs.
- necovek 3y ago
  I don't think it's a deliberate ploy: it's a micro-optimization that's localised to the team/company building the API/product, and it improves efficiency at that level. You can really build and maintain only a single version of your product, forgetting about maintaining old versions. This means pushing backwards compatibility challenges onto your customers (eg. other developers for an API) — the fact that customers have accepted that tells us that the optimization is working, though I am very much not a fan.
IshKebab 3y ago
That's really a separate issue. Even if all of your code is first party and you've been crazy enough to write your own TLS library, XML parser, etc. all the things he said still apply because most code lives in an ecosystem of other systems.
- necovek 3y ago
  He was advocating for continually updating whenever the environment changes. Dependencies are a natural part of that environment, and I am highlighting how even doing just that is troublesome. With any mildly complex project, you would simply be spending all your time doing dependency updates. I think we need to be looking at a better balance of backwards compatibility in the tools we use (both external systems and external libraries), understand the cost for importing almost-trivial dependencies, and I believe there might be even an opportunity for someone to start a business there ("I'll backport security fixes for your 10 dependencies for you").
PeterisP 3y ago
On the other side of the coin, if you freeze your dependencies and commit to not update whenever there's a newer version of any dep you are using, you commit yourself to having to continuously (and rapidly!) evaluate all the security advisories of all those dependencies to see if there are any bugs you have to mitigate before your system gets exploited. You can't simply choose to never update any dependencies - the only question is how you decide when and which updates will get made, or delegate that decision to others.
- necovek 3y ago
  Yeah, I don't think that's an answer either, which is why I talked about LTS-approach (Long Term Support) for your core dependencies. Eg. all packages in Ubuntu LTS "main" archive, or RedHat releases, get supported for 5-10 years with security fixes, while maintaining backwards compatibility. However, even Canonical has realized people will accept breakage, so "main" has been dwindling over time to reduce their costs. That also applies to snaps and flatpaks — no guarantees about them at all.

taneq 3y ago

This overacceptance of external dependencies and compatibility-breaking API changes all started with the shift from software-as-product to software-as-a-service. Honestly it feels like the resulting churn and busywork is on some level a deliberate ploy to create more job security for software devs.

necovek 3y ago
I don't think it's a deliberate ploy: it's a micro-optimization that's localised to the team/company building the API/product, and it improves efficiency at that level. You can really build and maintain only a single version of your product, forgetting about maintaining old versions. This means pushing backwards compatibility challenges onto your customers (eg. other developers for an API) — the fact that customers have accepted that tells us that the optimization is working, though I am very much not a fan.

IshKebab 3y ago

That's really a separate issue. Even if all of your code is first party and you've been crazy enough to write your own TLS library, XML parser, etc. all the things he said still apply because most code lives in an ecosystem of other systems.

necovek 3y ago
He was advocating for continually updating whenever the environment changes. Dependencies are a natural part of that environment, and I am highlighting how even doing just that is troublesome. With any mildly complex project, you would simply be spending all your time doing dependency updates. I think we need to be looking at a better balance of backwards compatibility in the tools we use (both external systems and external libraries), understand the cost for importing almost-trivial dependencies, and I believe there might be even an opportunity for someone to start a business there ("I'll backport security fixes for your 10 dependencies for you").

PeterisP 3y ago

On the other side of the coin, if you freeze your dependencies and commit to not update whenever there's a newer version of any dep you are using, you commit yourself to having to continuously (and rapidly!) evaluate all the security advisories of all those dependencies to see if there are any bugs you have to mitigate before your system gets exploited. You can't simply choose to never update any dependencies - the only question is how you decide when and which updates will get made, or delegate that decision to others.

necovek 3y ago
Yeah, I don't think that's an answer either, which is why I talked about LTS-approach (Long Term Support) for your core dependencies. Eg. all packages in Ubuntu LTS "main" archive, or RedHat releases, get supported for 5-10 years with security fixes, while maintaining backwards compatibility. However, even Canonical has realized people will accept breakage, so "main" has been dwindling over time to reduce their costs. That also applies to snaps and flatpaks — no guarantees about them at all.