4 ms·

Individual freedom should be restricted where your actions begin to harm the quality of life for others. Meaning camping on public sidewalks and parks, injectin

Individual freedom should be restricted where your actions begin to harm the quality of life for others. Meaning camping on public sidewalks and parks, injecting drugs openly, panhandling, and other nuisances. Children shouldn’t have to walk through drug addict encampments on the way to school.

ashconnor 3y ago
So drug use is OK as long as you can do it off the streets?
- squigz 3y ago
  And of course, some drugs are more okay to do in public than others.
  - coffeebeqn 3y ago
    Some drugs lead to a lot more of anti social behaviors in public than others
- kazinator 3y ago
  Yes? Like shitting is OK as long as you do it in a toilet, and not on the sidewalk.
- pedalpete 3y ago
  Drug use is ok as long as you are not harming/impeding the public. Children shouldn't be afraid to walk down the street because it is filled with zombified addicts. We don't allow public nudity, hate speech, etc etc. You should be allowed to do as you wish in your private residence, as long as you are not harming society.
  - ashconnor 3y ago
    Seems like more of a homelessness problem than a public drug use problem. Are we going to enforce public drunkenness laws too?
    - bombcar 3y ago
      Public drunkenness laws are often more enforced than some of the drug laws (to be fair, some drugs just turn you into a comatose zombie).
    - pedalpete 3y ago
      We can point to homelessness, mental health, lots of things are related. However, the key is that the public need to be protected first, AND then we need to solve the other issues. If public drunkenness was an issue and we had drunk people causing public safety issues, than yes, we would enforce public drunkenness, but that doesn't seem to be the issue.
    - wetpaws 3y ago
      [dead]
- anon291 3y ago
  Of course. I fully support weirdo silicon valley types taking drugs out in some desert far away from other people. Please just keep it there.
squigz 3y ago
I find it notable that you threw in panhandling and "other nuisances" right up there with doing drugs in public. They don't seem comparable.
- andy99 3y ago
  Why? The point is that it's all behavior that causes people to fear for their safety. I could care less if someone is on drugs or a drug user. What I do care about is public spaces being not safe because of the behavior of people in them.
  - squigz 3y ago
    Panhandling makes people fear for their safety?
    - all2 3y ago
      Yes. Homeless folks are often erratic and dangerous to others.
      - swatcoder 3y ago
        So are teenagers, but I suspect you don't get spooked when they try to sell you candy bars or nag you for a signature. There's value in being discerning about one's fears, and it's probably best to get a handle on the less justifiable ones before sending the state after people.
        all2 3y ago
        Normal teenagers are much less likely to assault you, in my experience.
        squigz 3y ago
        And it wouldn't be reasonable or fair to judge all teenagers like those who are likely to, would it?
beaeglebeachh 3y ago
Some would argue their quality of life goes down more from not being able to get high in the street than everyone else's does from watching it. Ultimately it's more a property rights issue imo.
rufus_foreman 3y ago
>> injecting drugs openly How does someone injecting drugs openly harm the quality of life for others? I can see it for the other things you mentioned. Is it just, "I don't want to see that"? Because there are many things I don't want to see. Not saying we shouldn't throw people in jail for drug possession. I'm OK with that. But if you're going to criminalize injecting drugs openly, you've got to live up to the fact that you're not a libertarian anymore.
- roskelld 3y ago
  Navigating around discarded needles is fun, even better when you have a curious dog that likes to sniff around.
  - rufus_foreman 3y ago
    If you want to enforce littering, enforce littering.
    - anon291 3y ago
      It would have the same effect as the drug laws?
      - rufus_foreman 3y ago
        Enforcing laws has a different effect than not enforcing laws.
        anon291 3y ago
        What I mean to say is that when you start arresting homeless drug users for littering and public defecation and removing encampments due to environmental issues (which Portland has started doing since they can't just do it for being homeless), the same activist types come out and accuse the city of the same things as the drug legalization people. You can say "oh well just enforce public disorder laws" and I actually agree with you, but the same groups behind drug legalization do not. I spoke at the Portland city council hearing on this issue on Wednesday and the majority of groups there were criticizing the city's approach to removing individuals who were leaving needles or blocking sidewalks or setting up drug tents on school property. The drug legalization is a dog whistle for what they really want.

ashconnor 3y ago

So drug use is OK as long as you can do it off the streets?

squigz 3y ago
And of course, some drugs are more okay to do in public than others.
- coffeebeqn 3y ago
  Some drugs lead to a lot more of anti social behaviors in public than others
kazinator 3y ago
Yes? Like shitting is OK as long as you do it in a toilet, and not on the sidewalk.
pedalpete 3y ago
Drug use is ok as long as you are not harming/impeding the public. Children shouldn't be afraid to walk down the street because it is filled with zombified addicts. We don't allow public nudity, hate speech, etc etc. You should be allowed to do as you wish in your private residence, as long as you are not harming society.
- ashconnor 3y ago
  Seems like more of a homelessness problem than a public drug use problem. Are we going to enforce public drunkenness laws too?
  - bombcar 3y ago
    Public drunkenness laws are often more enforced than some of the drug laws (to be fair, some drugs just turn you into a comatose zombie).
  - pedalpete 3y ago
    We can point to homelessness, mental health, lots of things are related. However, the key is that the public need to be protected first, AND then we need to solve the other issues. If public drunkenness was an issue and we had drunk people causing public safety issues, than yes, we would enforce public drunkenness, but that doesn't seem to be the issue.
  - wetpaws 3y ago
    [dead]
anon291 3y ago
Of course. I fully support weirdo silicon valley types taking drugs out in some desert far away from other people. Please just keep it there.

squigz 3y ago

I find it notable that you threw in panhandling and "other nuisances" right up there with doing drugs in public. They don't seem comparable.

andy99 3y ago
Why? The point is that it's all behavior that causes people to fear for their safety. I could care less if someone is on drugs or a drug user. What I do care about is public spaces being not safe because of the behavior of people in them.
- squigz 3y ago
  Panhandling makes people fear for their safety?
  - all2 3y ago
    Yes. Homeless folks are often erratic and dangerous to others.
    - swatcoder 3y ago
      So are teenagers, but I suspect you don't get spooked when they try to sell you candy bars or nag you for a signature. There's value in being discerning about one's fears, and it's probably best to get a handle on the less justifiable ones before sending the state after people.
      - all2 3y ago
        Normal teenagers are much less likely to assault you, in my experience.
        squigz 3y ago
        And it wouldn't be reasonable or fair to judge all teenagers like those who are likely to, would it?

beaeglebeachh 3y ago

Some would argue their quality of life goes down more from not being able to get high in the street than everyone else's does from watching it. Ultimately it's more a property rights issue imo.

rufus_foreman 3y ago

>> injecting drugs openly How does someone injecting drugs openly harm the quality of life for others? I can see it for the other things you mentioned. Is it just, "I don't want to see that"? Because there are many things I don't want to see. Not saying we shouldn't throw people in jail for drug possession. I'm OK with that. But if you're going to criminalize injecting drugs openly, you've got to live up to the fact that you're not a libertarian anymore.

roskelld 3y ago
Navigating around discarded needles is fun, even better when you have a curious dog that likes to sniff around.
- rufus_foreman 3y ago
  If you want to enforce littering, enforce littering.
  - anon291 3y ago
    It would have the same effect as the drug laws?
    - rufus_foreman 3y ago
      Enforcing laws has a different effect than not enforcing laws.
      - anon291 3y ago
        What I mean to say is that when you start arresting homeless drug users for littering and public defecation and removing encampments due to environmental issues (which Portland has started doing since they can't just do it for being homeless), the same activist types come out and accuse the city of the same things as the drug legalization people. You can say "oh well just enforce public disorder laws" and I actually agree with you, but the same groups behind drug legalization do not. I spoke at the Portland city council hearing on this issue on Wednesday and the majority of groups there were criticizing the city's approach to removing individuals who were leaving needles or blocking sidewalks or setting up drug tents on school property. The drug legalization is a dog whistle for what they really want.