4 ms·

https://archive.is/TvpRr https://archive.is/TvpRr Although, I could see this being beneficial in fields where labour is scarce (e.g.: the medical field), I fea

https://archive.is/TvpRr https://archive.is/TvpRr Although, I could see this being beneficial in fields where labour is scarce (e.g.: the medical field), I fear it could lend towards a "sleep deprivation is okay, just take creatine" rationale in other fields.

HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
Why does medical get an exception for poor treatment
- kadoban 2y ago
  It shouldn't in general, but there are restricted cases where it's literally life and death and difficult/impossible to plan around.
  - bennyhill 2y ago
    I don't see how a work around for an intentional shortage can be acceptable if you are saying the AMA kills people and I think that you are.
    - kadoban 2y ago
      > for an intentional shortage I would not say it's only acceptable for unintended shortages, or maybe very brief and rare shortages since those tend to be the kind you can't reasonably plan around. As for saying the AMA kills people, not sure I'd go that far without doing more research. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if the effect of some of their policies is more deaths than there otherwise would be.
      - kadoban 2y ago
        Ugh, I meant to say it's only acceptaple for unintended shortages. An extra "not" snuck in there.
- austhrow743 2y ago
  It's impossible for doctors and nurses to pass on everything they know about a patient during shift changes, which can be seen in the form of spikes in deaths and other bad outcomes right after care is handed over to a new team. Hence why they tend to do longer shifts. That effect is eventually balanced out by exhaustion, sleep deprivation, etc taking the same toll they do on everyone. Theoretically If you could reduce the impact of sleep deprivation, we could push shift lengths further, reduce the amount of turnover in carers a patient sees even more, and receive even further benefits in health outcomes.
  - pests 2y ago
    I think the claim in your opening sentence is unproven. Can we try to improve the handoff problem before trying to make sleep deprived doctors and nurses able to suffer for even longer?
  - binary132 2y ago
    What I just read sounded like “the solution to doctor burnout is even more doctor burnout” so that couldn’t possibly be what you really meant.
  - Nevermark 2y ago
    I would frame this as using creatine as a welcome mitigation for existing burnout from long shifts. Not enabling the same burnout for even longer shifts. Burnout and just simple short term fatigue both also create patient risk. We have drugs that would allow very long completely alert shifts, with few side effects for single use. But there is no way to do that regularly in a mentally (or physically) healthy sustainable way. I can see those being used by a battlefield medic, or in a disaster zone, for one off critical situations.

HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago

Why does medical get an exception for poor treatment

kadoban 2y ago
It shouldn't in general, but there are restricted cases where it's literally life and death and difficult/impossible to plan around.
- bennyhill 2y ago
  I don't see how a work around for an intentional shortage can be acceptable if you are saying the AMA kills people and I think that you are.
  - kadoban 2y ago
    > for an intentional shortage I would not say it's only acceptable for unintended shortages, or maybe very brief and rare shortages since those tend to be the kind you can't reasonably plan around. As for saying the AMA kills people, not sure I'd go that far without doing more research. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if the effect of some of their policies is more deaths than there otherwise would be.
    - kadoban 2y ago
      Ugh, I meant to say it's only acceptaple for unintended shortages. An extra "not" snuck in there.
austhrow743 2y ago
It's impossible for doctors and nurses to pass on everything they know about a patient during shift changes, which can be seen in the form of spikes in deaths and other bad outcomes right after care is handed over to a new team. Hence why they tend to do longer shifts. That effect is eventually balanced out by exhaustion, sleep deprivation, etc taking the same toll they do on everyone. Theoretically If you could reduce the impact of sleep deprivation, we could push shift lengths further, reduce the amount of turnover in carers a patient sees even more, and receive even further benefits in health outcomes.
- pests 2y ago
  I think the claim in your opening sentence is unproven. Can we try to improve the handoff problem before trying to make sleep deprived doctors and nurses able to suffer for even longer?
- binary132 2y ago
  What I just read sounded like “the solution to doctor burnout is even more doctor burnout” so that couldn’t possibly be what you really meant.
- Nevermark 2y ago
  I would frame this as using creatine as a welcome mitigation for existing burnout from long shifts. Not enabling the same burnout for even longer shifts. Burnout and just simple short term fatigue both also create patient risk. We have drugs that would allow very long completely alert shifts, with few side effects for single use. But there is no way to do that regularly in a mentally (or physically) healthy sustainable way. I can see those being used by a battlefield medic, or in a disaster zone, for one off critical situations.