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> incendiary responses to rust criticism can be I've not experienced this. Do you have examples of the rust community flaming someone for having negative opin

> incendiary responses to rust criticism can be I've not experienced this. Do you have examples of the rust community flaming someone for having negative opinions about the language?

chimen 3y ago
[flagged]
- cmrdporcupine 3y ago
  You were flagged for no such thing. You were flagged for a pointless quip about "woke"ness. Other people repeated more civil and reasonably argued forms of your same point about the language and its community and received no such downvotes. No need to play martyr.
  - chimen 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - Dylan16807 3y ago
      If you blame the wrong reason for downvotes, expect to be corrected. Your complaint here is invalid. Try criticizing Rust next time, if you want to demonstrate that criticizing Rust gets downvotes. You were throwing out insults in your very first comment.
tick_tock_tick 3y ago
I'd go read their mailing list and Reddit forms; especially when people run into issues doing stuff that's very simple in other languages. Never seen a more toxic programming community. Hopefully they calm down, or really get drown out, once there are a real number of jobs for people using Rust. Right now the evangelists outnumber the rank and file who are just using a language to get work done.
- the_mitsuhiko 3y ago
  That does not mirror my experience.
- gpm 3y ago
  Rust hasn't had a mailing list for roughly a decade now...
- astrange 3y ago
  If it helps, they can't possibly be as toxic as Lisp programmers used to be, where more or less any online conversation would start with someone new asking a question and Erik Naggum replying that they were a moron who should die.
  - cogman10 3y ago
    Lol, I had a similar example with perl as a young teen programmer. They've gotten way nicer.
  - kazinator 3y ago
    Why is it that, say, C programmers, as such, don't get painted according to what has historically gone on in the comp.lang.c newsgroup?
    - astrange 3y ago
      Probably because there's so many more of them. Maybe because being called not a real UNIX programmer feels different from being called a Blub programmer.
      - kazinator 3y ago
        Maybe I should ask: why should someone interested about Lisp today have to hear stories about some Erik Naggum who posted to a Usenet newsgroup, and died 15 years ago? Let's assume that the newsgroup is important. Legendary Lisp hacker Alan Bawden posted there just last week or so. Nobody ever mentions him.
VancouverMan 3y ago
Based on what I've seen, various forms of censorship and suppression are often employed in such cases, rather than outright "flaming" or other discussion-based approaches. It really depends on where and how the discussion is taking place, and what censorship methods the website/platform/medium involved offers. Sometimes users are just outright banned or shadow-banned, if those happen to be options. Sometimes forum threads, bug reports, or comments are deleted. Sometimes the discussion remains accessible, but is stifled in some way. This includes closing/locking forum threads or bug reports, or otherwise severely limiting participation in such discussions to a very small and isolated group of people. If down-voting/reporting systems are present, sometimes they're used to limit the visibility or prominence of such discussion.
- cogman10 3y ago
  Ok, do you have a concrete example of this?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - VancouverMan 3y ago
    I haven't rigorously tracked all of the instances I've seen of this happening over the years, but I've tried to quickly find some more prominent examples for you. This bug report, for example, has various "This comment has been minimized.", "rust-lang deleted a comment from ...", "rust-lang locked and limited conversation to collaborators" interference: https://github.com/rust-lang/team/pull/671 https://github.com/rust-lang/team/pull/671 A Reddit thread discussing the situation from that bug report mentioned above has numerous "[removed]" comments and down-voted comments: https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/qzme1z/moderation_team_resignation/ https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/qzme1z/moderation_tea... When Rust is discussed here, it's common enough for reasonable and relevant Rust-related comments to be voted down, sometimes severely. These threads have some examples I quickly found via a search of high-activity Rust submissions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24334731&p=2 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24334731&p=2 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24343867 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24343867 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23802674 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23802674 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26812047&p=2 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26812047&p=2 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29488336 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29488336 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11340100 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11340100 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24337001 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24337001 Here's an example of a recent submission on this site for an article very reasonably and thoroughly questioning Rust. It got some attention, and now it's currently marked as "[flagged]": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40091427 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40091427 Keep in mind that strict "moderating" (ie, censoring) has been an integral part of the Rust community's identity for many years now via its Code of Conduct and Moderation Team - https://www.rust-lang.org/policies/code-of-conduct https://www.rust-lang.org/policies/code-of-conduct https://www.rust-lang.org/governance/teams/moderation https://www.rust-lang.org/governance/teams/moderation
googh 3y ago
Not parent, but take a look at these: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32117148 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32117148 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39641552 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39641552 These threads are absolutely painful to read. The Rust community/leadership would not do anything about it because Rust thrives on such "devotion".
- alecthomas 3y ago
  Damn, that second one is excruciating to read. I wonder if they're aware of how they put people off the Rust ecosystem with their rabid defensiveness.
gg2222 3y ago
Check this response to the article within these HN comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40177534 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40177534 Not actually flaming but quite condescending towards the article writer. Not even properly reading the article and coming to conclusions. This is on HN which is generally more neutral towards Rust. I imagine in Rust circles these types of responses would come out a lot more.

> incendiary responses to rust criticism can be I've not experienced this. Do you have examples of the rust community flaming someone for having negative opinions about the language?

chimen 3y ago

[flagged]

cmrdporcupine 3y ago
You were flagged for no such thing. You were flagged for a pointless quip about "woke"ness. Other people repeated more civil and reasonably argued forms of your same point about the language and its community and received no such downvotes. No need to play martyr.
- chimen 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - Dylan16807 3y ago
    If you blame the wrong reason for downvotes, expect to be corrected. Your complaint here is invalid. Try criticizing Rust next time, if you want to demonstrate that criticizing Rust gets downvotes. You were throwing out insults in your very first comment.

tick_tock_tick 3y ago

I'd go read their mailing list and Reddit forms; especially when people run into issues doing stuff that's very simple in other languages. Never seen a more toxic programming community. Hopefully they calm down, or really get drown out, once there are a real number of jobs for people using Rust. Right now the evangelists outnumber the rank and file who are just using a language to get work done.

the_mitsuhiko 3y ago
That does not mirror my experience.
gpm 3y ago
Rust hasn't had a mailing list for roughly a decade now...
astrange 3y ago
If it helps, they can't possibly be as toxic as Lisp programmers used to be, where more or less any online conversation would start with someone new asking a question and Erik Naggum replying that they were a moron who should die.
- cogman10 3y ago
  Lol, I had a similar example with perl as a young teen programmer. They've gotten way nicer.
- kazinator 3y ago
  Why is it that, say, C programmers, as such, don't get painted according to what has historically gone on in the comp.lang.c newsgroup?
  - astrange 3y ago
    Probably because there's so many more of them. Maybe because being called not a real UNIX programmer feels different from being called a Blub programmer.
    - kazinator 3y ago
      Maybe I should ask: why should someone interested about Lisp today have to hear stories about some Erik Naggum who posted to a Usenet newsgroup, and died 15 years ago? Let's assume that the newsgroup is important. Legendary Lisp hacker Alan Bawden posted there just last week or so. Nobody ever mentions him.

VancouverMan 3y ago

Based on what I've seen, various forms of censorship and suppression are often employed in such cases, rather than outright "flaming" or other discussion-based approaches. It really depends on where and how the discussion is taking place, and what censorship methods the website/platform/medium involved offers. Sometimes users are just outright banned or shadow-banned, if those happen to be options. Sometimes forum threads, bug reports, or comments are deleted. Sometimes the discussion remains accessible, but is stifled in some way. This includes closing/locking forum threads or bug reports, or otherwise severely limiting participation in such discussions to a very small and isolated group of people. If down-voting/reporting systems are present, sometimes they're used to limit the visibility or prominence of such discussion.

cogman10 3y ago
Ok, do you have a concrete example of this?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- VancouverMan 3y ago
  I haven't rigorously tracked all of the instances I've seen of this happening over the years, but I've tried to quickly find some more prominent examples for you. This bug report, for example, has various "This comment has been minimized.", "rust-lang deleted a comment from ...", "rust-lang locked and limited conversation to collaborators" interference: https://github.com/rust-lang/team/pull/671 https://github.com/rust-lang/team/pull/671 A Reddit thread discussing the situation from that bug report mentioned above has numerous "[removed]" comments and down-voted comments: https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/qzme1z/moderation_team_resignation/ https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/qzme1z/moderation_tea... When Rust is discussed here, it's common enough for reasonable and relevant Rust-related comments to be voted down, sometimes severely. These threads have some examples I quickly found via a search of high-activity Rust submissions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24334731&p=2 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24334731&p=2 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24343867 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24343867 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23802674 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23802674 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26812047&p=2 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26812047&p=2 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29488336 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29488336 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11340100 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11340100 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24337001 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24337001 Here's an example of a recent submission on this site for an article very reasonably and thoroughly questioning Rust. It got some attention, and now it's currently marked as "[flagged]": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40091427 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40091427 Keep in mind that strict "moderating" (ie, censoring) has been an integral part of the Rust community's identity for many years now via its Code of Conduct and Moderation Team - https://www.rust-lang.org/policies/code-of-conduct https://www.rust-lang.org/policies/code-of-conduct https://www.rust-lang.org/governance/teams/moderation https://www.rust-lang.org/governance/teams/moderation

googh 3y ago

Not parent, but take a look at these: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32117148 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32117148 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39641552 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39641552 These threads are absolutely painful to read. The Rust community/leadership would not do anything about it because Rust thrives on such "devotion".

alecthomas 3y ago
Damn, that second one is excruciating to read. I wonder if they're aware of how they put people off the Rust ecosystem with their rabid defensiveness.

gg2222 3y ago

Check this response to the article within these HN comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40177534 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40177534 Not actually flaming but quite condescending towards the article writer. Not even properly reading the article and coming to conclusions. This is on HN which is generally more neutral towards Rust. I imagine in Rust circles these types of responses would come out a lot more.