7 ms·

'The bane of retail.' Many big chains now lock up all kinds of merchandise

30 points by dangle1 2y ago

dangle1 2y ago
Joe Budano, chief executive of San Diego-based Indyme which makes buttons to beckon sales associates to specific aisles is interviewed: >His company also has developed technology — the Freedom Case, they call it — that allows shoppers to open cases themselves using personal information such as their cellphone number or by scanning their face. More than 40 retailers are testing the Freedom Case in stores, Budano said, including a national chain he declined to name.
- aerotwelve 2y ago
  Wonderful! Want to buy a package of razorblades? It's time to get your retinas scanned. Absolutely revolting that any retailer would even consider doing something like this.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - pavel_lishin 2y ago
    > It's time to get your retinas scanned. Well, they don't have your colonic map on file, do they.
    - doubled112 2y ago
      Don't give them ideas.
    - rasz 2y ago
      Smart Pipe works in the cloud https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJklHwoYgBQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJklHwoYgBQ
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
lb7000 2y ago
Retailers also seem to be deploying a solution that includes moving their stores out of cities that don't crack down on theft.
- hobs 2y ago
  Most retail shrink is done by employees, not customers.
  - gameman144 2y ago
    Do you have any data to back this up? That feels very wrong anecdotally, but I'd be glad to be proven wrong.
    - hobs 2y ago
      After looking through a few links I don't have as good data as was in my retail training in 2004 or so, but https://www.businessinsider.com/stop-blaming-theft-shrink-target-walgreens2023-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/stop-blaming-theft-shrink-ta... talks about them being fairly comparable, and that retail mismanagement is within 10% or so of the problems due to theft. Overall my point is just that the retail theft story is blown way out of proportion, and many media and political outfits benefit from concern around crime.
      - strken 2y ago
        It probably differs by stores and locations, right? I can imagine one city having a huge problem and another having barely any issues.
      - s1artibartfast 2y ago
        I dont understand how that supports the conclusion that it is out of proportion. It can be simultaneously true that mismanagement is a meaningful budget impact, and theft is a meaningful budget impact. I think the more interesting questions are if the rates of theft are changing. IF it has gone 10x in 10 years, that might be noteworthy, no? If theft rates are concentrated in 10% of locations, that might be noteworthy too. My national retail supermarket has profit margin of about 1% of sales (ticker ACI). If mismanagement was always 1%, and now theft goes up to 1%, the company will go bankrupt.
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
I have run into these locked up shelves up and down the west coast of the US in many cities. It is strange and inconvenient but very understandable - I’ve seen a couple times now people openly stealing things and the store workers doing nothing but requesting politely that the criminal leave. That is not going to work and until people are allowed to defend against crimes and police are allowed to do their work, it will continue. Or maybe it’s prosecutors that need to do their job because they usually release these guys with no real punishment.
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  What would it look like for a retail store employee to "defend against crimes?" Like what are you picturing here?
  - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
    Simply being given permission (particularly by the law) to detain criminals and hold them until police arrive. Same permission for security guards hired by stores or shoppers who want to help. And use of force in defense of property or people. Basically something that will help with immediate stopping of a live crime and consequences for criminals, whatever that help might be, so the rest of us aren’t affected by locked up items and higher prices.
    - robocat 2y ago
      > detain criminals and hold them until police arrive You are suggesting we take the poorest paid retail workers and expect them to hold down criminals! Planet la la. I cannot imagine the employers giving workers training or defensive gear either. And zero backup when workers get taken down as retaliation on the way home... Following your logic perhaps we just need robots with guns.
      - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
        You’re making up a worst case scenario. > Following your logic perhaps we just need robots with guns. That doesn’t follow at all.
vintagedave 2y ago
A year or so ago I, a tourist in America, went to a pharmacy in Boston to get some headache tablets (ibuprofen). This was somewhere in the city center, very close to Boston Common, and felt a modern, safe neighborhood so far as a foreigner could judge. Every single item on every single shelf was behind glass. I had to get help to get myself a pack of cheap non-prescription painkillers. This article focuses on the phenomenon, but it misses the key point that struck me that day. I could only imagine such precautions were due to endemic theft. And petty theft for essentials such as medicines doesn’t speak to stealing for profit, but to desperation, like stealing food. I was left wondering: what is going on in America?
- quickthrowman 2y ago
  > And petty theft for essentials such as medicines doesn’t speak to stealing for profit You’re 100% wrong here. There are a couple ways I’m aware of to go about selling personal care items and medicines for profit. -Sell them to a broker/fence who sells to ‘bodegas’ and other retail stores who buy discounted stolen merchandise -Box it up and ship it to Amazon and have Amazon fence it for you (seriously). I’m sure Amazon is aware but doesn’t care. > I was left wondering: what is going on in America? Shoplifting under $1000 isn’t prosecuted in a lot of places, which enables the above behavior.
- barsonme 2y ago
  People have been stealing stuff, like laundry detergent or baby formula or power tools, in bulk then reselling it for half price on eBay or Facebook Marketplace. Maybe they’re desperate for money. But they’re certainly not desperate for $20k of baby formula [1]. [1]: https://www.fox8live.com/video/2024/03/24/police-thieves-caught-stealing-20k-worth-baby-formula-local-walmarts/ https://www.fox8live.com/video/2024/03/24/police-thieves-cau...
  - Terr_ 2y ago
    I've seen some people defend shoplifting (including of baby-formula) with something along the lines of: "People who do it are desperate and oppressed, so unless you're a class-traitor you should pretend you didn't see anything." However cases like the one in that link--and knowing at least some of the products get fenced and resold rather than consumed by the shoplifter--make it really hard for me to fully buy into that worldview.
jrm4 2y ago
As with self-checkout theft, cry me a river. This isn't all that logically hard to figure out, it's just not profitable. Big chains, almost by definition as they operate, don't care about their workers. Alternatively, if your store figures out how to take care and value your workers, your workers will care about your store and the locality in which the store exists, and they will work towards solving this problem.
- idopmstuff 2y ago
  > Alternatively, if your store figures out how to take care and value your workers, your workers will care about your store and the locality in which the store exists, and they will work towards solving this problem. This is a pretty backwards view of this situation. The workers should not be the one solving this problem, and the store should not be putting them in a position to do so. Locking up goods deters theft at a cost to the store. A worker confronting a thief deters theft but at a potential significant cost of the worker being assaulted (or charged with a crime for assaulting the thief). The way this should work is that if the workers see the theft and call the police, who intervene appropriately.
  - riehwvfbk 2y ago
    Forget about confronting a thief, I've had workers at Walmart steal my purchases. Yes, in the Bay Area. Presumably they return the items for store credit afterwards. I don't even feel too bad about it because I can't imagine surviving here on a Walmart salary. They needed that money more than I did. I did, however, stop going to Walmart. But honestly Bay Area shopping is now worse than what you'll see in developing countries. Stores are rundown and dirty, many things are perpetually out of stock, homeless roam the aisles. I'm sure all the profit-related metrics are optimized to death though.
- mensetmanusman 2y ago
  It has little to do with the chains and much to do with society. Big chains tell workers never to confront theft, because the insurance risks are not worth it. Society says that thefts are also not worth dealing with.
kristjansson 2y ago
Unless these retail stores are letting their employees profile customers, and refuse to unlock the cases for undesirables, I fail to see how these are any real deterrent to shoplifting. Just ask to unlock the case, get the item, walk around for another minute, then walk out with paying. ... and if they are profiling customers, the settlements are going to make their shrinkage losses look like pocket change
- patch_cable 2y ago
  Employees may still be able to limit the amount that is stolen. You may be able to steal one item, but are blocked from filling up a bag.
- skyyler 2y ago
  >I fail to see how these are any real deterrent to shoplifting. Just ask to unlock the case, get the item, walk around for another minute, then walk out with paying. Most people do not get handed the item from the lock case. I believe it's policy at most stores, the item goes to the front where the person requesting the item asks for it at the register. People like you or I may be handed items from the lock case, but that's because we look trustworthy to the employees. (Wearing nice clothes, hair kept tidy, etc)
  - thfuran 2y ago
    >Wearing nice clothes, hair kept tidy, etc I can tell you've never met me.
  - defrost 2y ago
    Thieves adapt, there was an Australian shoplifting gang in London in the 1960s that robbed jewellry stores, art and high fashion outlets blind by dressing well and working as a team; building trust on contact and using the distraction of a "dirty hobo undesirable" | sudden argument | nuisance customer to cover lifts.
    - 082349872349872 2y ago
teeray 2y ago
At that point, why not just switch to BOPIS-only? (Buy Online Pick-up In Store) You’ve already committed an employee to help every customer that needs those items. What’s the marginal cost to have them ring up the order and put it in a pickup locker too?
- antifa 2y ago
  I like BOPIS, but some places are starting to charge a fee for it.
qwerpy 2y ago
As usual the solution to the rising inconveniences in America is to not be poor. Live in a nice neighborhood where you can have Amazon packages safely delivered to your doorstep, and drive your garaged car to Costco and get cheaper higher quality goods in bulk. Other “poor” problems are having your car broken into, being assaulted on public transit, and sending your kids to subpar public schools. I’m glad I’m in tech and can pay to be insulated from all of this.
- srackey 2y ago
  Interesting that poor people in say, Japan, don’t have these sorts of issues for the most part.
  - nradov 2y ago
    Why don't Japanese people have those issues? I understand that the theft rate is much lower but I'm not clear on why.
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      Self respect and respect of others.
    - Ekaros 2y ago
      More homogenous society has less internal issues.
    - HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
      Japan doesn't have the historical and downstream oppression of racial and other minorities issues of the US. When the system is aligned against you, it's natural to disregard the system's rules.
      - buzzert 2y ago
        That's because Japan doesn't have any racial minorities to "oppress".
bsder 2y ago
Well, this is what happens when you pay your employees shit and don't have enough of them. The solutions are straightforward, but retail will do everything short of actually employing human beings and treating them well. If this provides enough opportunity, Amazon will eventually start shifting these goods at enough localized warehouses that they'll be able to deliver in less than a couple hours. When that happens, these retail stores can go bankrupt like they deserve.
- barsonme 2y ago
  What are employees supposed to do? They’re not the police, they can’t arrest anybody for stealing. And they’re most certainly not a deterrent for these kinds of these bulk thefts. Plus, it’s incredibly unfair to the employees to make it their problem. A cashier or stocker or whatever shouldn’t be responsible for doing anything other than calling 911.
  - bsder 2y ago
    For example, not having "self-checkout" helps dramatically. You can't bulk theft with a cart when said cart has to first go through an engineered checkout arena. However, that would require an increase in the number of employees to ... you know ... check people out. In addition, "normal" (read: not organized crime of some flavor) shoplifters will do a lot less of it if there are enough employees around that they think they will get observed--especially if you then ban them from even entering the store. If, however, there are two employees for a whole bloody store, people will have zero compunction about trying to pocket something since their chances of being called out are zero. Again, you fix this by having more employees. Instead, these retail companies are just whining hoping somebody else will spend the money to fix the problem that their own penny pinching caused. > A cashier or stocker or whatever shouldn’t be responsible for doing anything other than calling 911. I agree with this 100%. However, there are a lot of things you can do with psychology that will deter shoplifting behavior far short of accosting people. Finally, not treating your employees like shit means that your internal theft won't be as high, either.
srackey 2y ago
Can we make petty crime illegal again?
- Ekaros 2y ago
  Maybe we should also go back to corporal punishment. And why not stream it too to boot. You are caught stealing, driving over speed limit, ignoring red right, jaywalking, quick speedy trial same or next day. A few lashes streamed on Internet and off you go.
  - HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
    The gallows are an untapped market for advertising and popcorn sales.

30 points by dangle1 2y ago

Joe Budano, chief executive of San Diego-based Indyme which makes buttons to beckon sales associates to specific aisles is interviewed: >His company also has developed technology — the Freedom Case, they call it — that allows shoppers to open cases themselves using personal information such as their cellphone number or by scanning their face. More than 40 retailers are testing the Freedom Case in stores, Budano said, including a national chain he declined to name.

aerotwelve 2y ago
Wonderful! Want to buy a package of razorblades? It's time to get your retinas scanned. Absolutely revolting that any retailer would even consider doing something like this.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- pavel_lishin 2y ago
  > It's time to get your retinas scanned. Well, they don't have your colonic map on file, do they.
  - doubled112 2y ago
    Don't give them ideas.
  - rasz 2y ago
    Smart Pipe works in the cloud https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJklHwoYgBQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJklHwoYgBQ
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

lb7000 2y ago

Retailers also seem to be deploying a solution that includes moving their stores out of cities that don't crack down on theft.

hobs 2y ago
Most retail shrink is done by employees, not customers.
- gameman144 2y ago
  Do you have any data to back this up? That feels very wrong anecdotally, but I'd be glad to be proven wrong.
  - hobs 2y ago
    After looking through a few links I don't have as good data as was in my retail training in 2004 or so, but https://www.businessinsider.com/stop-blaming-theft-shrink-target-walgreens2023-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/stop-blaming-theft-shrink-ta... talks about them being fairly comparable, and that retail mismanagement is within 10% or so of the problems due to theft. Overall my point is just that the retail theft story is blown way out of proportion, and many media and political outfits benefit from concern around crime.
    - strken 2y ago
      It probably differs by stores and locations, right? I can imagine one city having a huge problem and another having barely any issues.
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      I dont understand how that supports the conclusion that it is out of proportion. It can be simultaneously true that mismanagement is a meaningful budget impact, and theft is a meaningful budget impact. I think the more interesting questions are if the rates of theft are changing. IF it has gone 10x in 10 years, that might be noteworthy, no? If theft rates are concentrated in 10% of locations, that might be noteworthy too. My national retail supermarket has profit margin of about 1% of sales (ticker ACI). If mismanagement was always 1%, and now theft goes up to 1%, the company will go bankrupt.

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago

I have run into these locked up shelves up and down the west coast of the US in many cities. It is strange and inconvenient but very understandable - I’ve seen a couple times now people openly stealing things and the store workers doing nothing but requesting politely that the criminal leave. That is not going to work and until people are allowed to defend against crimes and police are allowed to do their work, it will continue. Or maybe it’s prosecutors that need to do their job because they usually release these guys with no real punishment.

giraffe_lady 2y ago
What would it look like for a retail store employee to "defend against crimes?" Like what are you picturing here?
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  Simply being given permission (particularly by the law) to detain criminals and hold them until police arrive. Same permission for security guards hired by stores or shoppers who want to help. And use of force in defense of property or people. Basically something that will help with immediate stopping of a live crime and consequences for criminals, whatever that help might be, so the rest of us aren’t affected by locked up items and higher prices.
  - robocat 2y ago
    > detain criminals and hold them until police arrive You are suggesting we take the poorest paid retail workers and expect them to hold down criminals! Planet la la. I cannot imagine the employers giving workers training or defensive gear either. And zero backup when workers get taken down as retaliation on the way home... Following your logic perhaps we just need robots with guns.
    - blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
      You’re making up a worst case scenario. > Following your logic perhaps we just need robots with guns. That doesn’t follow at all.

vintagedave 2y ago

A year or so ago I, a tourist in America, went to a pharmacy in Boston to get some headache tablets (ibuprofen). This was somewhere in the city center, very close to Boston Common, and felt a modern, safe neighborhood so far as a foreigner could judge. Every single item on every single shelf was behind glass. I had to get help to get myself a pack of cheap non-prescription painkillers. This article focuses on the phenomenon, but it misses the key point that struck me that day. I could only imagine such precautions were due to endemic theft. And petty theft for essentials such as medicines doesn’t speak to stealing for profit, but to desperation, like stealing food. I was left wondering: what is going on in America?

quickthrowman 2y ago
> And petty theft for essentials such as medicines doesn’t speak to stealing for profit You’re 100% wrong here. There are a couple ways I’m aware of to go about selling personal care items and medicines for profit. -Sell them to a broker/fence who sells to ‘bodegas’ and other retail stores who buy discounted stolen merchandise -Box it up and ship it to Amazon and have Amazon fence it for you (seriously). I’m sure Amazon is aware but doesn’t care. > I was left wondering: what is going on in America? Shoplifting under $1000 isn’t prosecuted in a lot of places, which enables the above behavior.
barsonme 2y ago
People have been stealing stuff, like laundry detergent or baby formula or power tools, in bulk then reselling it for half price on eBay or Facebook Marketplace. Maybe they’re desperate for money. But they’re certainly not desperate for $20k of baby formula [1]. [1]: https://www.fox8live.com/video/2024/03/24/police-thieves-caught-stealing-20k-worth-baby-formula-local-walmarts/ https://www.fox8live.com/video/2024/03/24/police-thieves-cau...
- Terr_ 2y ago
  I've seen some people defend shoplifting (including of baby-formula) with something along the lines of: "People who do it are desperate and oppressed, so unless you're a class-traitor you should pretend you didn't see anything." However cases like the one in that link--and knowing at least some of the products get fenced and resold rather than consumed by the shoplifter--make it really hard for me to fully buy into that worldview.

jrm4 2y ago

As with self-checkout theft, cry me a river. This isn't all that logically hard to figure out, it's just not profitable. Big chains, almost by definition as they operate, don't care about their workers. Alternatively, if your store figures out how to take care and value your workers, your workers will care about your store and the locality in which the store exists, and they will work towards solving this problem.

idopmstuff 2y ago
> Alternatively, if your store figures out how to take care and value your workers, your workers will care about your store and the locality in which the store exists, and they will work towards solving this problem. This is a pretty backwards view of this situation. The workers should not be the one solving this problem, and the store should not be putting them in a position to do so. Locking up goods deters theft at a cost to the store. A worker confronting a thief deters theft but at a potential significant cost of the worker being assaulted (or charged with a crime for assaulting the thief). The way this should work is that if the workers see the theft and call the police, who intervene appropriately.
- riehwvfbk 2y ago
  Forget about confronting a thief, I've had workers at Walmart steal my purchases. Yes, in the Bay Area. Presumably they return the items for store credit afterwards. I don't even feel too bad about it because I can't imagine surviving here on a Walmart salary. They needed that money more than I did. I did, however, stop going to Walmart. But honestly Bay Area shopping is now worse than what you'll see in developing countries. Stores are rundown and dirty, many things are perpetually out of stock, homeless roam the aisles. I'm sure all the profit-related metrics are optimized to death though.
mensetmanusman 2y ago
It has little to do with the chains and much to do with society. Big chains tell workers never to confront theft, because the insurance risks are not worth it. Society says that thefts are also not worth dealing with.

kristjansson 2y ago

Unless these retail stores are letting their employees profile customers, and refuse to unlock the cases for undesirables, I fail to see how these are any real deterrent to shoplifting. Just ask to unlock the case, get the item, walk around for another minute, then walk out with paying. ... and if they are profiling customers, the settlements are going to make their shrinkage losses look like pocket change

patch_cable 2y ago
Employees may still be able to limit the amount that is stolen. You may be able to steal one item, but are blocked from filling up a bag.
skyyler 2y ago
>I fail to see how these are any real deterrent to shoplifting. Just ask to unlock the case, get the item, walk around for another minute, then walk out with paying. Most people do not get handed the item from the lock case. I believe it's policy at most stores, the item goes to the front where the person requesting the item asks for it at the register. People like you or I may be handed items from the lock case, but that's because we look trustworthy to the employees. (Wearing nice clothes, hair kept tidy, etc)
- thfuran 2y ago
  >Wearing nice clothes, hair kept tidy, etc I can tell you've never met me.
- defrost 2y ago
  Thieves adapt, there was an Australian shoplifting gang in London in the 1960s that robbed jewellry stores, art and high fashion outlets blind by dressing well and working as a team; building trust on contact and using the distraction of a "dirty hobo undesirable" | sudden argument | nuisance customer to cover lifts.
  - 082349872349872 2y ago

teeray 2y ago

At that point, why not just switch to BOPIS-only? (Buy Online Pick-up In Store) You’ve already committed an employee to help every customer that needs those items. What’s the marginal cost to have them ring up the order and put it in a pickup locker too?

antifa 2y ago
I like BOPIS, but some places are starting to charge a fee for it.

qwerpy 2y ago

As usual the solution to the rising inconveniences in America is to not be poor. Live in a nice neighborhood where you can have Amazon packages safely delivered to your doorstep, and drive your garaged car to Costco and get cheaper higher quality goods in bulk. Other “poor” problems are having your car broken into, being assaulted on public transit, and sending your kids to subpar public schools. I’m glad I’m in tech and can pay to be insulated from all of this.

srackey 2y ago
Interesting that poor people in say, Japan, don’t have these sorts of issues for the most part.
- nradov 2y ago
  Why don't Japanese people have those issues? I understand that the theft rate is much lower but I'm not clear on why.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    Self respect and respect of others.
  - Ekaros 2y ago
    More homogenous society has less internal issues.
  - HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
    Japan doesn't have the historical and downstream oppression of racial and other minorities issues of the US. When the system is aligned against you, it's natural to disregard the system's rules.
    - buzzert 2y ago
      That's because Japan doesn't have any racial minorities to "oppress".

bsder 2y ago

Well, this is what happens when you pay your employees shit and don't have enough of them. The solutions are straightforward, but retail will do everything short of actually employing human beings and treating them well. If this provides enough opportunity, Amazon will eventually start shifting these goods at enough localized warehouses that they'll be able to deliver in less than a couple hours. When that happens, these retail stores can go bankrupt like they deserve.

barsonme 2y ago
What are employees supposed to do? They’re not the police, they can’t arrest anybody for stealing. And they’re most certainly not a deterrent for these kinds of these bulk thefts. Plus, it’s incredibly unfair to the employees to make it their problem. A cashier or stocker or whatever shouldn’t be responsible for doing anything other than calling 911.
- bsder 2y ago
  For example, not having "self-checkout" helps dramatically. You can't bulk theft with a cart when said cart has to first go through an engineered checkout arena. However, that would require an increase in the number of employees to ... you know ... check people out. In addition, "normal" (read: not organized crime of some flavor) shoplifters will do a lot less of it if there are enough employees around that they think they will get observed--especially if you then ban them from even entering the store. If, however, there are two employees for a whole bloody store, people will have zero compunction about trying to pocket something since their chances of being called out are zero. Again, you fix this by having more employees. Instead, these retail companies are just whining hoping somebody else will spend the money to fix the problem that their own penny pinching caused. > A cashier or stocker or whatever shouldn’t be responsible for doing anything other than calling 911. I agree with this 100%. However, there are a lot of things you can do with psychology that will deter shoplifting behavior far short of accosting people. Finally, not treating your employees like shit means that your internal theft won't be as high, either.

srackey 2y ago

Can we make petty crime illegal again?

Ekaros 2y ago
Maybe we should also go back to corporal punishment. And why not stream it too to boot. You are caught stealing, driving over speed limit, ignoring red right, jaywalking, quick speedy trial same or next day. A few lashes streamed on Internet and off you go.
- HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
  The gallows are an untapped market for advertising and popcorn sales.