4 ms·

The PV is about ~$300 per person (when spread out over decades). You're fighting a losing battle living in California if you're going to complain about spendin

The PV is about ~$300 per person (when spread out over decades). You're fighting a losing battle living in California if you're going to complain about spending ~$0.03 per day to have electric cars...

lazide 3y ago
That’s the claim, right now. Originally it was $0. I left California awhile ago. My current (peak) electrical rates are less than $.15/kwh, and i’m not far from the border though.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  Who ever claimed $0? I get why you left California. Up here in Seattle we pay 10-13 cents? But I probably wouldn’t notice much if we paid 50 cents.
  - lazide 3y ago
    Pre ~ 2023 the party line was 'we don't need to do anything in generation/distribution infrastructure, we just need to roll out more chargers'. With hints or even promises of REDUCED electric rates, not increased rates. Search seems to be prioritizing more recent articles, so harder to find references, but there are plenty out there. I remember reading dozens of articles at the time which all insisted that costs would stay the same or go down, and we didn't need to make more generation capacity because EV use would never be a meaningful portion of electrical demand. "In addition, by including new rate structures in the pilot programs, California may be able to shift load in ways that defers expensive new generation or transmissions assets. This remains to be seen, but could result in lower rates overall." [https://www.csis.org/analysis/utility-involvement-electric-vehicle-charging-infrastructure-california-vanguard https://www.csis.org/analysis/utility-involvement-electric-v...] Here is the California Legislative bill passed on the topic in 2022 - and the focus is on building more chargers. [https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202120220AB2700 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml...] Here is also the mandate to increase more charging infrastructure too, and assess effectiveness. [https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/reports/electric-vehicle-charging-infrastructure-assessment-ab-2127 https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/reports/electric-vehi...] By 2022, they were trying to get folks to switch to grid controlled charging [https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/ev-charging/new-california-rule-will-cut-costs-of-home-ev-charging https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/ev-charging/new-califor...] which is a bit crazy for the end consumer, and could even be a large scale safety issue. Essentially centralized rationing. In 2023 is when supply/demand issues got so obvious that people started to call BS [https://calmatters.org/environment/2023/01/california-electric-cars-grid/ https://calmatters.org/environment/2023/01/california-electr...]. Notably, around then is also when the Diablo Canyon nuclear plant decommissioning got canned (despite it being past it's design life, with known and expensive to remediate radiation leaks). Seattle doesn't need AC, but a lot of housing does have electric baseboard heating. Those folks would definitely notice if electricity ~quadrupled in cost!
    - ZeroGravitas 3y ago
      This very article is claiming that the per unit electricity prices will decrease because EV charging will gravitate to "fill in" low demand regions, spreading fixed costs across more units. You appear to be using this new research as proof of the opposite, and calling out previous times the exact same claim was made.
      - lazide 3y ago
        Ah, of course - $/kwh will drop, despite spending an additional $20-50bln we previously didn't expect on generation. /s Did costs drop for AC, despite load being during peak insolation? Or unit kwh costs overall? Because it just keeps going up, faster than inflation. The 'we'll only charge during high supply/low demand' times is fantasy, near as I can tell.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      > we don't need to do anything in generation/distribution infrastructure, we just need to roll out more chargers I just never heard that argument, if it was common, or was it a Californian thing? Grid controlled charging is common in Europe where electricity rates are higher (well, outside of Norway who has plenty of cheap hydro). Americans have always seemed to take their car freedoms for granted (cheap gas! free parking! cheap electricity!). Having lived in Europe for a couple of years and then in Asia, it boggles my mind how many free things we get over here. Diablo Canyon has a warm water problem (that kills fish when the warm water is put back into the ocean), not a radiation problem. > Seattle doesn't need AC, but a lot of housing does have electric baseboard heating. Those folks would definitely notice if electricity ~quadrupled in cost! We are basically Norway: we have lots of hydro and a relatively mild climate. Heat pumps are pretty efficient.
      - lazide 3y ago
        This discussion was specific to California, with some side discussions. Diablo Canyon has been leaking tritium. [https://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML1116/ML11166A174.pdf https://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML1116/ML11166A174.pdf] And numerous fault lines were discovered in and around the plant after construction that lead to serious concerns of structural failures and radiation leaks in the event of earthquakes. The most recent was found in 2008. Water temp hasn’t been the issue, and I have no idea where you got that from.
- warble 3y ago
  I live in California and only pay 0.10-0.12 a kWh.
  - lazide 3y ago
    What area are you in? Average rate when I was in the Bay Area was > $.55/kwh.
  - infecto 3y ago
    While this may very well be true, the vast majority of California is serviced by 3 main providers and their rates are nowhere near that price.

lazide 3y ago

That’s the claim, right now. Originally it was $0. I left California awhile ago. My current (peak) electrical rates are less than $.15/kwh, and i’m not far from the border though.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
Who ever claimed $0? I get why you left California. Up here in Seattle we pay 10-13 cents? But I probably wouldn’t notice much if we paid 50 cents.
- lazide 3y ago
  Pre ~ 2023 the party line was 'we don't need to do anything in generation/distribution infrastructure, we just need to roll out more chargers'. With hints or even promises of REDUCED electric rates, not increased rates. Search seems to be prioritizing more recent articles, so harder to find references, but there are plenty out there. I remember reading dozens of articles at the time which all insisted that costs would stay the same or go down, and we didn't need to make more generation capacity because EV use would never be a meaningful portion of electrical demand. "In addition, by including new rate structures in the pilot programs, California may be able to shift load in ways that defers expensive new generation or transmissions assets. This remains to be seen, but could result in lower rates overall." [https://www.csis.org/analysis/utility-involvement-electric-vehicle-charging-infrastructure-california-vanguard https://www.csis.org/analysis/utility-involvement-electric-v...] Here is the California Legislative bill passed on the topic in 2022 - and the focus is on building more chargers. [https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=202120220AB2700 https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml...] Here is also the mandate to increase more charging infrastructure too, and assess effectiveness. [https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/reports/electric-vehicle-charging-infrastructure-assessment-ab-2127 https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/reports/electric-vehi...] By 2022, they were trying to get folks to switch to grid controlled charging [https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/ev-charging/new-california-rule-will-cut-costs-of-home-ev-charging https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/ev-charging/new-califor...] which is a bit crazy for the end consumer, and could even be a large scale safety issue. Essentially centralized rationing. In 2023 is when supply/demand issues got so obvious that people started to call BS [https://calmatters.org/environment/2023/01/california-electric-cars-grid/ https://calmatters.org/environment/2023/01/california-electr...]. Notably, around then is also when the Diablo Canyon nuclear plant decommissioning got canned (despite it being past it's design life, with known and expensive to remediate radiation leaks). Seattle doesn't need AC, but a lot of housing does have electric baseboard heating. Those folks would definitely notice if electricity ~quadrupled in cost!
  - ZeroGravitas 3y ago
    This very article is claiming that the per unit electricity prices will decrease because EV charging will gravitate to "fill in" low demand regions, spreading fixed costs across more units. You appear to be using this new research as proof of the opposite, and calling out previous times the exact same claim was made.
    - lazide 3y ago
      Ah, of course - $/kwh will drop, despite spending an additional $20-50bln we previously didn't expect on generation. /s Did costs drop for AC, despite load being during peak insolation? Or unit kwh costs overall? Because it just keeps going up, faster than inflation. The 'we'll only charge during high supply/low demand' times is fantasy, near as I can tell.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    > we don't need to do anything in generation/distribution infrastructure, we just need to roll out more chargers I just never heard that argument, if it was common, or was it a Californian thing? Grid controlled charging is common in Europe where electricity rates are higher (well, outside of Norway who has plenty of cheap hydro). Americans have always seemed to take their car freedoms for granted (cheap gas! free parking! cheap electricity!). Having lived in Europe for a couple of years and then in Asia, it boggles my mind how many free things we get over here. Diablo Canyon has a warm water problem (that kills fish when the warm water is put back into the ocean), not a radiation problem. > Seattle doesn't need AC, but a lot of housing does have electric baseboard heating. Those folks would definitely notice if electricity ~quadrupled in cost! We are basically Norway: we have lots of hydro and a relatively mild climate. Heat pumps are pretty efficient.
    - lazide 3y ago
      This discussion was specific to California, with some side discussions. Diablo Canyon has been leaking tritium. [https://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML1116/ML11166A174.pdf https://www.nrc.gov/docs/ML1116/ML11166A174.pdf] And numerous fault lines were discovered in and around the plant after construction that lead to serious concerns of structural failures and radiation leaks in the event of earthquakes. The most recent was found in 2008. Water temp hasn’t been the issue, and I have no idea where you got that from.
warble 3y ago
I live in California and only pay 0.10-0.12 a kWh.
- lazide 3y ago
  What area are you in? Average rate when I was in the Bay Area was > $.55/kwh.
- infecto 3y ago
  While this may very well be true, the vast majority of California is serviced by 3 main providers and their rates are nowhere near that price.