5 ms·

Florida inmates charged for prison cells long after incarceration

73 points by coloneltcb 3y ago

thelastgallon 3y ago
Private prisons must be profitable and keep growing to satisfy the shareholders! In the last quarter of the twentieth century, the incarceration rate in the US increased by a factor of five.[22] Between the years 2001 and 2012, crime rates (both property and violent crimes) have declined 22% after already falling 30% in years prior between 1991 and 2001: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_ra... Also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal
- jazzyjackson 3y ago
  private prisons get too much credit, public prisons also have perverse incentives driven by their workers' union (if only the prisoners were allowed to unionize too!)
- slillibri 3y ago
  Private prisons account for < 10% of incarcerated individuals nationally, but it must be noted that many states do not have private prisons, and some states, such as Montana, have 49% of incarcerated individuals in private prisons. https://www.sentencingproject.org/reports/private-prisons-in-the-united-states/ https://www.sentencingproject.org/reports/private-prisons-in...
- 1992spacemovie 3y ago
  Private prisons are absolutely abhorrent when you consider the core nature of business entities. Also they do appear to be a red herring - they are bad and sound bad - but are not significant percentage wise.
- octopoc 3y ago
  That decline is most likely inaccurate due to people not reporting crime because they know the police will do nothing, or due to changing definitions of crime. I remember some news stories on HN about a California city where a man filmed large-scale exchange of stolen goods (laptops, cell phones, etc.), the police did nothing, and a local news outlet interviewed city hall and found that city hall explicitly instructed the police to do nothing. Another anecdote on HN was a story about how breaking into a vehicle and stealing things was only illegal if the vehicle's doors were locked. If the thief was caught on camera checking the doors, that was considered proof that the doors were locked. So thieves figured out that there was on proof the doors were locked if they simple broke the glass without even trying the door to see if it was locked.
  - xrd 3y ago
    I'm having a hard time squaring your comments with my own anecdotes. On the one hand, it clearly seems like NYC is safer than the NYC of the 80s. I know there are a lot of stories that would support or deny that assertion. And, it feels like there are perverse incentives to over-report crime when it is convenient. I recall reading Twitter posts during the "crime surge" of the pandemic where the police department indicated they were too overwhelmed by a car jacking to deal with other crimes, so be careful out there! I really wish there was someone reporting on exactly what you have called out, that the reporting has probably changed significantly, and that deserves scrutiny.
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
    Will try to cut long story into something brief, to this. Phone stolen. Go through usual steps. A few weeks later, someone contacts me, "hey, I was sold what seems to be your phone on eBay..." (I had put a message on it). "I was wondering if you'd got a replacement, and be willing to unlock the phone. I just bought it..". Points for gumption, I guess. I said "How do I know you weren't the thief..." He reached out to the seller, who initially refused to exchange the phone. "I am in contact with the legit owner of the phone, and will give him your info so he can pass on to the police". Seller exchanged phone. This guy then gave me the info and listing anyway. My phone. IMEI had two digits transposed. Looked at the guys other listings, and it was a warehouse of stolen goods, effectively: hundreds of Macs and other laptops, mostly "no accessories, no charger", hundreds of phones, "no cables, locked", and so on. All the phones had invalid IMEIs unless you un-transposed the same two digits that were transposed in mine (plausible deniability I guess? You search for IMEI, no hits. But it looks legit because he's willing to share it, and can say 'oops, typo'). Go to the police. They were supremely uninterested. "Well, he probably wasn't the guy who actually stole your phone". I pointed out that I thought it was still a crime to sell stolen goods, even if you didn't sell them, and if you're selling dozens or more near current MBPs for $300ish "without any accessories, may be locked", then what is your explanation? Still didn't care. I did my part, short of going to the home nearby and pouring water in his gas tank, which was tempting.
jprd 3y ago
This is so f*cking bananas, don't believe the hype - slavery isn't dead in the US.
- rjbwork 3y ago
  Not only is it not dead, it has been intentionally and painstakingly reconstructed over the past ~150 years.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    There is a non-insignificant cohort of the electorate who votes for this intentionally. Edit: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40157954 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40157954
- redeeman 3y ago
  or anywhere else. the kings protection money must be paid, or else. You might call it fancy words to distract, but it is what it is
- Clubber 3y ago
  It never was, the 13th amendment (which abolishes slavery) has an exception for convicted citizens: AMENDMENT XIII Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
- EA-3167 3y ago
  Don't kid yourself, this isn't some widespread issue in the US, this is Florida being Florida.
- DiggyJohnson 3y ago
  This is a horrible thing, but it's not slavery. That's just a rhetorical device.
  - michaelmrose 3y ago
rjbwork 3y ago
The primitive sadism underpinning the carceral system in this country is shameful.
- PM_me_your_math 3y ago
  [dead]
jampekka 3y ago
The land of the fee, the home of the slave.
pfisch 3y ago
Even if they do stay in prison for the entire sentence this is crazy. 50$ a day is insane and must be impossible for 99% of inmates to ever repay.
- ThrowawayIP 3y ago
  Even with Tech Salaries, $1550/month is hugely damaging to your finances. I can't imagine trying to pay that on less than $15/hour.
  - rappatic 3y ago
    Florida's minimum wage is $12/hour. If you work two jobs, say 60 hrs/week, repaying the state for your time in prison would take half of all the money you make. This is unbelievably evil.
  - ceinewydd 3y ago
    Was it picked as $50/day because that represents some (not even most) of the cost to the State of Florida for incarcerating you for crimes? Did Florida justify this or decide that taxpayers shouldn’t be so heavily burdened by individuals who decide to commit crimes? I’m not even sure this is simply a “rent” — unlike renting an apartment or a house (shelter), while the prison is also shelter, it also has to be 24x7 staffed with guards (and likely other personnel like a medical clinic). There’s fixed costs like utilities which probably don’t vary much based on population (lighting and heating), and variable costs like food, water and waste management. It’s certainly a bit crazy to charge someone for 7 years if they only serve 70 days, but I see some logic to charging per day you’re actually incarcerated. It’s not a “rehabilitation friendly” policy due to the effects on your finance after release, but it may be argued it amplifies the deterrent — “if you don’t want to do the time (and pay); don’t do the crime”.
    - r2_pilot 3y ago
      > per day you’re actually incarcerated. It’s not a “rehabilitation friendly” policy due to the effects on your finance after release, but it may be argued it amplifies the deterrent — “if you don’t want to do the time (and pay); don’t do the crime”. Arguably, it generates the opposite behavior in some folks: "Well, my circumstances are bad, so I may as well always do bad since there's no upside to participating in society since I'm permanently screwed."
kenjackson 3y ago
I’m typically a ”tough on crime“ person, but this is absurd. Charging people for a resource that they didn’t use, which is intended to be reusable seems like pure exploitation. If they want a 30 or even 90 day early release fee, to cover having to refill the cell — I don’t like it, but I’d get it. But charging someone for 7 years?!?
- consp 3y ago
  > If they want a 30 or even 90 day early release fee Why? They are not using it and have no choice in the matter. It's like having to pay rent until the next renter arrives, which you have no control over.
  - kenjackson 3y ago
    It's like taking out a 10 year lease, but leaving early. If you leave early, I think it's fair that you're on the hook until a new renter can come in -- or at least some reasonable amount of time to give the facility to find a new renter.
  - croes 3y ago
    >Florida can also impose a new bill on the next occupant of that bed, potentially allowing the state to double, triple, or quadruple charge for the same bed. More like paying while next renter is already paying and the renter after him and the renter after him. Just jail everybody to 10 years release them after a week and get the money the next 10 years. Everywhere else this would be called a scam and exploitation.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
sandworm101 3y ago
>> "It will be on her credit history, it will make it difficult for her to get a job, for her to get housing, to buy a car, or do anything else that she needs to do, to be able to return to society," Foster told the I-Team. "They have a lien attached to anything you get in life.” That is the purpose. People don't like to talk about how class-based US society remains. People, voters, actively want a hierarchy of citizens. Everyone is grouped into neat permanent boxes. There are the "illegals" who live in constant fear of arrest. There are "felons" who can only work certain jobs. There are "sex offenders" who can only live in certain places. Even for free, law-abiding, people there exists a hierarchy of citizenship ranging from "US national" to "citizen", with "native-born citizen" being at the top. Imposing lifetime financial burdens on criminals just creates another underclass of perpetually indigent persons. That is the goal of the policy and reflects the desire of a great many powerful people. Lack of social mobility makes powerful people feel safe. For a while.
- decremental 3y ago
  [dead]
- ryandrake 3y ago
  The Cruelty Is the Point[1]. There's a segment of US society who are not satisfied until the maximum amount of cruelty is applied to people they identify as their opponents. Prisoners (and ex-prisoners) are an easy target because they've already done something to "deserve" suffering, and few will argue to treat them kindly. So these people can vote to fire all of their cruelty at this class with no pushback. I don't really think at its core it's about "people feeling safe." The people pushing for these things simply want an "other" to suffer, and so they vote to create underclasses and legal ways to inflict this suffering. And they rejoice in it. I used to live in Florida, but sadly the state has taken a sharp right turn recently, and has become this deranged laboratory where politicians experiment with innovative forms of cruelty. Really pushing the boundaries and finding out what they can legally inflict. I've long since escaped that place (and hopefully the few very vocal sadists who determine the state's politics), but it's sad to know I live in the same country as them. 1: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/the-cruelty-is-the-point/572104/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/the-cruelt...
fcb92019 3y ago
[flagged]
- JoeAltmaier 3y ago
  That is such a load. Putting words in their mouth, trying to justify the cruelty and vicious vindictiveness of a broken state by throwing blame. They paid for their cell already. The bill for a room they didn't inhabit is usurious. You book a room for a weekend, they charge you for six years, you'd complain too. I know, just a troll, I should learn to leave them to die on the vine.
noobermin 3y ago
This story is absolutely unbelievable, like what is even the point of prison if this is what it does? Sure as a teenager Hoffman was deliquent but a $130k fine on someone who didn't even need to serve the sentence seems to obviously be a cruel and unusual punishment.
mindslight 3y ago
This idea of "user fees" for subjects of the government is a cancer. Governments need to be seen as their own independent entities with their own responsibility for their actions, not some blameless ambient authority that just exists. The government chose to put these people in cages, regardless of it perhaps being sensible policy agreed upon by the public. The responsibility of paying for the cages to put people in should rest fully on the government. It's quite perverse to take away someone's freedom and then charge them for the "privilege" as if it's some type of consensual arrangement. The same goes for criminal "court costs" and even "permit fees". The true cost of government needs to reside with the government rather than being externalized. If that makes certain government activities "too expensive" and there is no political will to pay for their true costs, then those activities should be scaled back to exist within their means.
euroderf 3y ago
A sort of a time-shifted debtor's prison.
- beaeglebeachh 3y ago
  Courts are great at getting around debtors prison laws. They just say you're violating court order to pay your debt. You see... You're not imprisoned for debt, you're imprisoned for disobeying the judge telling you to pay it!
beaeglebeachh 3y ago
Debt collectors still chase me for the cost of a warrant served by CBP, where nothing was found.
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  And yet where police demonstrably flashbang your house, batter down your door, and it was the wrong house for their warrant... ... they have no liability or obligation - and will go to court to fight having to pay you for the damage they did. Their "argument" is that liability is on the target of their warrant, which doesn't answer awkward questions like "what if the target is never convicted of a crime" and "the target didn't make you raid the wrong house..."
PM_me_your_math 3y ago
[dead]
baobun 3y ago
> "There was another girl in there that was something she shouldn’t have been doing and instead of getting involved and doing what they asked, the director kicked me out. So technically that’s failure to complete your terms of the courts," Hoffman said. > Because of that, the judge sentenced Hoffman to seven years in prison. She served 10 months after the judge allowed her to participate in a youth offender boot camp. My English comprehension is failing. She got seven years because of what...?

73 points by coloneltcb 3y ago

Private prisons must be profitable and keep growing to satisfy the shareholders! In the last quarter of the twentieth century, the incarceration rate in the US increased by a factor of five.[22] Between the years 2001 and 2012, crime rates (both property and violent crimes) have declined 22% after already falling 30% in years prior between 1991 and 2001: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_ra... Also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal

jazzyjackson 3y ago
private prisons get too much credit, public prisons also have perverse incentives driven by their workers' union (if only the prisoners were allowed to unionize too!)
slillibri 3y ago
Private prisons account for < 10% of incarcerated individuals nationally, but it must be noted that many states do not have private prisons, and some states, such as Montana, have 49% of incarcerated individuals in private prisons. https://www.sentencingproject.org/reports/private-prisons-in-the-united-states/ https://www.sentencingproject.org/reports/private-prisons-in...
1992spacemovie 3y ago
Private prisons are absolutely abhorrent when you consider the core nature of business entities. Also they do appear to be a red herring - they are bad and sound bad - but are not significant percentage wise.
octopoc 3y ago
That decline is most likely inaccurate due to people not reporting crime because they know the police will do nothing, or due to changing definitions of crime. I remember some news stories on HN about a California city where a man filmed large-scale exchange of stolen goods (laptops, cell phones, etc.), the police did nothing, and a local news outlet interviewed city hall and found that city hall explicitly instructed the police to do nothing. Another anecdote on HN was a story about how breaking into a vehicle and stealing things was only illegal if the vehicle's doors were locked. If the thief was caught on camera checking the doors, that was considered proof that the doors were locked. So thieves figured out that there was on proof the doors were locked if they simple broke the glass without even trying the door to see if it was locked.
- xrd 3y ago
  I'm having a hard time squaring your comments with my own anecdotes. On the one hand, it clearly seems like NYC is safer than the NYC of the 80s. I know there are a lot of stories that would support or deny that assertion. And, it feels like there are perverse incentives to over-report crime when it is convenient. I recall reading Twitter posts during the "crime surge" of the pandemic where the police department indicated they were too overwhelmed by a car jacking to deal with other crimes, so be careful out there! I really wish there was someone reporting on exactly what you have called out, that the reporting has probably changed significantly, and that deserves scrutiny.
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  Will try to cut long story into something brief, to this. Phone stolen. Go through usual steps. A few weeks later, someone contacts me, "hey, I was sold what seems to be your phone on eBay..." (I had put a message on it). "I was wondering if you'd got a replacement, and be willing to unlock the phone. I just bought it..". Points for gumption, I guess. I said "How do I know you weren't the thief..." He reached out to the seller, who initially refused to exchange the phone. "I am in contact with the legit owner of the phone, and will give him your info so he can pass on to the police". Seller exchanged phone. This guy then gave me the info and listing anyway. My phone. IMEI had two digits transposed. Looked at the guys other listings, and it was a warehouse of stolen goods, effectively: hundreds of Macs and other laptops, mostly "no accessories, no charger", hundreds of phones, "no cables, locked", and so on. All the phones had invalid IMEIs unless you un-transposed the same two digits that were transposed in mine (plausible deniability I guess? You search for IMEI, no hits. But it looks legit because he's willing to share it, and can say 'oops, typo'). Go to the police. They were supremely uninterested. "Well, he probably wasn't the guy who actually stole your phone". I pointed out that I thought it was still a crime to sell stolen goods, even if you didn't sell them, and if you're selling dozens or more near current MBPs for $300ish "without any accessories, may be locked", then what is your explanation? Still didn't care. I did my part, short of going to the home nearby and pouring water in his gas tank, which was tempting.

jprd 3y ago

This is so f*cking bananas, don't believe the hype - slavery isn't dead in the US.

rjbwork 3y ago
Not only is it not dead, it has been intentionally and painstakingly reconstructed over the past ~150 years.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  There is a non-insignificant cohort of the electorate who votes for this intentionally. Edit: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40157954 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40157954
redeeman 3y ago
or anywhere else. the kings protection money must be paid, or else. You might call it fancy words to distract, but it is what it is
Clubber 3y ago
It never was, the 13th amendment (which abolishes slavery) has an exception for convicted citizens: AMENDMENT XIII Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
EA-3167 3y ago
Don't kid yourself, this isn't some widespread issue in the US, this is Florida being Florida.
DiggyJohnson 3y ago
This is a horrible thing, but it's not slavery. That's just a rhetorical device.
- michaelmrose 3y ago

rjbwork 3y ago

The primitive sadism underpinning the carceral system in this country is shameful.

PM_me_your_math 3y ago
[dead]

jampekka 3y ago

The land of the fee, the home of the slave.

pfisch 3y ago

Even if they do stay in prison for the entire sentence this is crazy. 50$ a day is insane and must be impossible for 99% of inmates to ever repay.

ThrowawayIP 3y ago
Even with Tech Salaries, $1550/month is hugely damaging to your finances. I can't imagine trying to pay that on less than $15/hour.
- rappatic 3y ago
  Florida's minimum wage is $12/hour. If you work two jobs, say 60 hrs/week, repaying the state for your time in prison would take half of all the money you make. This is unbelievably evil.
- ceinewydd 3y ago
  Was it picked as $50/day because that represents some (not even most) of the cost to the State of Florida for incarcerating you for crimes? Did Florida justify this or decide that taxpayers shouldn’t be so heavily burdened by individuals who decide to commit crimes? I’m not even sure this is simply a “rent” — unlike renting an apartment or a house (shelter), while the prison is also shelter, it also has to be 24x7 staffed with guards (and likely other personnel like a medical clinic). There’s fixed costs like utilities which probably don’t vary much based on population (lighting and heating), and variable costs like food, water and waste management. It’s certainly a bit crazy to charge someone for 7 years if they only serve 70 days, but I see some logic to charging per day you’re actually incarcerated. It’s not a “rehabilitation friendly” policy due to the effects on your finance after release, but it may be argued it amplifies the deterrent — “if you don’t want to do the time (and pay); don’t do the crime”.
  - r2_pilot 3y ago
    > per day you’re actually incarcerated. It’s not a “rehabilitation friendly” policy due to the effects on your finance after release, but it may be argued it amplifies the deterrent — “if you don’t want to do the time (and pay); don’t do the crime”. Arguably, it generates the opposite behavior in some folks: "Well, my circumstances are bad, so I may as well always do bad since there's no upside to participating in society since I'm permanently screwed."

kenjackson 3y ago

I’m typically a ”tough on crime“ person, but this is absurd. Charging people for a resource that they didn’t use, which is intended to be reusable seems like pure exploitation. If they want a 30 or even 90 day early release fee, to cover having to refill the cell — I don’t like it, but I’d get it. But charging someone for 7 years?!?

consp 3y ago
> If they want a 30 or even 90 day early release fee Why? They are not using it and have no choice in the matter. It's like having to pay rent until the next renter arrives, which you have no control over.
- kenjackson 3y ago
  It's like taking out a 10 year lease, but leaving early. If you leave early, I think it's fair that you're on the hook until a new renter can come in -- or at least some reasonable amount of time to give the facility to find a new renter.
- croes 3y ago
  >Florida can also impose a new bill on the next occupant of that bed, potentially allowing the state to double, triple, or quadruple charge for the same bed. More like paying while next renter is already paying and the renter after him and the renter after him. Just jail everybody to 10 years release them after a week and get the money the next 10 years. Everywhere else this would be called a scam and exploitation.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

sandworm101 3y ago

>> "It will be on her credit history, it will make it difficult for her to get a job, for her to get housing, to buy a car, or do anything else that she needs to do, to be able to return to society," Foster told the I-Team. "They have a lien attached to anything you get in life.” That is the purpose. People don't like to talk about how class-based US society remains. People, voters, actively want a hierarchy of citizens. Everyone is grouped into neat permanent boxes. There are the "illegals" who live in constant fear of arrest. There are "felons" who can only work certain jobs. There are "sex offenders" who can only live in certain places. Even for free, law-abiding, people there exists a hierarchy of citizenship ranging from "US national" to "citizen", with "native-born citizen" being at the top. Imposing lifetime financial burdens on criminals just creates another underclass of perpetually indigent persons. That is the goal of the policy and reflects the desire of a great many powerful people. Lack of social mobility makes powerful people feel safe. For a while.

decremental 3y ago
[dead]
ryandrake 3y ago
The Cruelty Is the Point[1]. There's a segment of US society who are not satisfied until the maximum amount of cruelty is applied to people they identify as their opponents. Prisoners (and ex-prisoners) are an easy target because they've already done something to "deserve" suffering, and few will argue to treat them kindly. So these people can vote to fire all of their cruelty at this class with no pushback. I don't really think at its core it's about "people feeling safe." The people pushing for these things simply want an "other" to suffer, and so they vote to create underclasses and legal ways to inflict this suffering. And they rejoice in it. I used to live in Florida, but sadly the state has taken a sharp right turn recently, and has become this deranged laboratory where politicians experiment with innovative forms of cruelty. Really pushing the boundaries and finding out what they can legally inflict. I've long since escaped that place (and hopefully the few very vocal sadists who determine the state's politics), but it's sad to know I live in the same country as them. 1: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/the-cruelty-is-the-point/572104/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/the-cruelt...

fcb92019 3y ago

[flagged]

JoeAltmaier 3y ago
That is such a load. Putting words in their mouth, trying to justify the cruelty and vicious vindictiveness of a broken state by throwing blame. They paid for their cell already. The bill for a room they didn't inhabit is usurious. You book a room for a weekend, they charge you for six years, you'd complain too. I know, just a troll, I should learn to leave them to die on the vine.

noobermin 3y ago

This story is absolutely unbelievable, like what is even the point of prison if this is what it does? Sure as a teenager Hoffman was deliquent but a $130k fine on someone who didn't even need to serve the sentence seems to obviously be a cruel and unusual punishment.

mindslight 3y ago

This idea of "user fees" for subjects of the government is a cancer. Governments need to be seen as their own independent entities with their own responsibility for their actions, not some blameless ambient authority that just exists. The government chose to put these people in cages, regardless of it perhaps being sensible policy agreed upon by the public. The responsibility of paying for the cages to put people in should rest fully on the government. It's quite perverse to take away someone's freedom and then charge them for the "privilege" as if it's some type of consensual arrangement. The same goes for criminal "court costs" and even "permit fees". The true cost of government needs to reside with the government rather than being externalized. If that makes certain government activities "too expensive" and there is no political will to pay for their true costs, then those activities should be scaled back to exist within their means.

euroderf 3y ago

A sort of a time-shifted debtor's prison.

beaeglebeachh 3y ago
Courts are great at getting around debtors prison laws. They just say you're violating court order to pay your debt. You see... You're not imprisoned for debt, you're imprisoned for disobeying the judge telling you to pay it!

beaeglebeachh 3y ago

Debt collectors still chase me for the cost of a warrant served by CBP, where nothing was found.

FireBeyond 3y ago
And yet where police demonstrably flashbang your house, batter down your door, and it was the wrong house for their warrant... ... they have no liability or obligation - and will go to court to fight having to pay you for the damage they did. Their "argument" is that liability is on the target of their warrant, which doesn't answer awkward questions like "what if the target is never convicted of a crime" and "the target didn't make you raid the wrong house..."

PM_me_your_math 3y ago

[dead]

baobun 3y ago

> "There was another girl in there that was something she shouldn’t have been doing and instead of getting involved and doing what they asked, the director kicked me out. So technically that’s failure to complete your terms of the courts," Hoffman said. > Because of that, the judge sentenced Hoffman to seven years in prison. She served 10 months after the judge allowed her to participate in a youth offender boot camp. My English comprehension is failing. She got seven years because of what...?