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I see this as a national security threat that it is. The potential for abuse from the CCP on the minds of US users exists as does the tracking the app could do

I see this as a national security threat that it is. The potential for abuse from the CCP on the minds of US users exists as does the tracking the app could do and every data point that is generated is stored and potentially useful for blackmail or otherwise on members of Congress or others. The US and its allies got rid of Chinese telecom hardware from their networks for the very same reasons now it’s time to do the same with TikTok. Would you let an enemy supply you with the very same kit you would use to fight them? No. Would you let that same adversary install an app on your most used device to watch and track you? Hah no. A spin to a US company is not enough. It needs to cease operating in the US because there’s no surety that even with a spin data and sharing won’t get back to ByteDance China. Parallel to this we need a federal national data privacy law that protects us but also cracks down on the huge industry of data brokers selling Americans’ data to anyone that has cash.

logicchains 3y ago
>I see this as a national security threat that it is. The US government is a far greater danger to the average American than the Chinese government is, and this bill just gives even more power to the US government to dominate its citizens.
- computerfriend 3y ago
  This statement is not obviously true.
  - retrochameleon 3y ago
    It is also a logical fallacy. Even if it is true that the US is a greater threat in some sense, that doesn't invalidate that China is also a threat. It also doesn't justify not taking this action.
  - BeFlatXIII 3y ago
    [ citation needed ]
- nyokodo 3y ago
  > The US government is a far greater danger to the average American than the Chinese government is The US government could, if it wanted to, slaughter the entire civilian population of the US right now and no one could stop them. I don’t believe for a second that China would be so restrained if it suddenly had that power over the USA. So, while it’s true that having the power that it does makes the US government a potential threat, it is nowhere near as much of an actual threat as China.
  - 4gotunameagain 3y ago
    Just to spell it out, you are suggesting that if "China" could, would conduct a mass scale genocide against Americans ? And you base that where exactly ?
  - raxxorraxor 3y ago
    Very doubtful. Military would defect en masse and you would get a civil war where government gets the boot in the end rather sooner than later.
    - whatshisface 3y ago
      It's not defection to refuse to carry out unlawful orders, soldiers can be punished for carrying out orders that they knew were unlawful, or orders which are so obviously unlawful that the soldier should have known. The united states does not have an SS.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - FactKnower69 3y ago
    >The US government could, if it wanted to, slaughter the entire civilian population of the US right now and no one could stop them. I don’t believe for a second that China would be so restrained if it suddenly had that power over the USA. What the fuck are you talking about???
- RoyalHenOil 3y ago
  You are also more likely to be murdered by a loved oned than by a stranger, but this doesn't mean that it's rational to open your door to strangers and bar it to your loved ones.
wannacboatmovie 3y ago
Musk has already alluded to bringing back Vine, so the eradication of TikTok would be no great loss. As an aside, I always viewed TikTok as a real world analogue to the mind control subplot from Zoolander (Frankie says 'relax')...
- kmeisthax 3y ago
  We already have YouTube, Instagram, Snapchat, and even LinkedIn to fill the short video void - bringing back Vine would be a Johnny-come-lately move.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- moomin 3y ago
  Twitter couldn’t make Vine work. Trying to do it in the severely weakened form it’s in now strikes me as less plausible than his Mars plans.
fallingfrog 3y ago
This whole thing is baffling to me. What are you talking about? What enemy? I would rather someone in China has my information than my own government. China has no power over me; my own government does. I don’t care if china knows whether I like cheesecake better than blueberry pie. They’re interested in monitoring their own citizens, im sure- for the same reasons our own government agencies and corporate behemoths monitor ours. But I don’t see what use china could have for data about Americans. Look: the Cold War is over. And communism is a red herring. The world has changed. For some reason Americas elites view TikTok as a threat, probably because they don’t have the kind of total access to their servers that they’re accustomed to with American firms. But that has little to do with regular Americans. And there’s no argument other than decades old red baiting tropes they can think of to try to get us to care.
- Log_out_ 3y ago
  The cold war of authoritarian VS democracy never ended. And China has the ability to turn anyone with mainland access into a asset by holding family hostage and models itself after the British empire. The Indians did have no quarrel with the king of India, until they did. Westcentrism and neutrality are no strategy now that the fascists march again.
  - fallingfrog 3y ago
    Word salad. There isn’t really any coherent thought there for me to respond to.
    - Log_out_ 3y ago
      Worldviewsalad, there is no coherent concept for me to reply to. Not even values.
      - fallingfrog 3y ago
        Separating the world into “good guys” and “bad guys” does not constitute “values”. That is the thinking of a child.
aprilthird2021 3y ago
Can someone please explain to me what the security threat is? I still haven't understood it. If it's that China will know more about Americans through data ingestion, they can already do that. Americans willingly upload every little bit of their lives to YouTube, Twitch, and tons of other platforms. Not to mention that Temu is the most downloaded shopping app in the US. And what kind of attack can TikTok information provide that other publicly available online information scraped from other social media sites cannot? If it's that China can show American citizens a curated list of topics and videos to make Americans think certain ways or vote certain ways, then I absolutely think that's a 1A problem. That's the exact same rhetoric tons of repressive Communist countries used and still use to deny people the freedom to read books from outside, watch movies from outside, read newspapers from outside, etc. And I'm never going to accept the idea that information (even full on lies) so dangerous that people shouldn't be allowed to see them.
- 4gotunameagain 3y ago
  It is because it is the adversary who controls the algorithms and suggestions. The establishment wants and needs a monopoly in shaping the opinions and thoughts of its citizens.
- rockemsockem 3y ago
  I *think* the main national security argument is that TikTok can tweak the algorithm to incite discord and inflame conflicts within the US. They can do this far more effectively from their own platform than by doing it on other social networks via bots and fake accounts. I tend to come down with the same opinion as you though. It's all still essentially a first amendment issue and the negatives I listed aren't going to disappear if TikTok goes away.
  - whatshisface 3y ago
    "Don’t think you are going to conceal faults by concealing evidence that they ever existed." - President Dwight D. Eisenhower.
  - aprilthird2021 3y ago
noobermin 3y ago
To be honest, the use of the word "enemy" is far too strong, it sounds like we are at war with them while they somehow supply half of our goods at prices we've grown accustomed to. "Adversary" is a weaker word that is more apt (which you use later), where the US is not on the friendliest terms with China but isn't in an outright war with them. Words matter, at the very least to avoid starting nationalistic flamewars here on HN.
- beebmam 3y ago
  The US is in a cold war with China as long as China is open to the idea of the use of military force on its neighbors, including Taiwan. A cold war is the only alternative to surrendering the free Taiwanese people to communist rule, and a hot war.
  - omnimus 3y ago
    US is also open to the idea to use military force and not only on their neighbours but also on countries far away. US is in cold war with China because China might soon be economicaly getting upper hand.
    - mort96 3y ago
      I don't get your first paragraph. Of course the US is open to the idea of using military force against, well, pretty much anyone. I don't see how that's relevant, other than as some form of pointing out hypocrisy? Or are you actually saying that "because the US is prepared to do its own military action, it categorically doesn't enter cold wars with other countries based on which military actions the other country could do"? I don't understand.
      - ExoticPearTree 3y ago
        Hypocrisy mostly. You can’t tell others to stop doing what you keep doing. The US considers all of LATAM as his own back yard. Why can’t China consider all of Asia as its own back yard? This is what upsets people, the sheer size of hypocrisy.
troupo 3y ago
Should other countries do the same with US companies? US government regularly (ab)uses FISA to get data on foreign nationals: https://transparency.meta.com/reports/government-data-requests/ https://transparency.meta.com/reports/government-data-reques... > Parallel to this we need a federal national data privacy law that protects us but also cracks down on the huge industry of data brokers selling Americans’ data to anyone that has cash. And also dismantle the law where the US can request any data on any person, even abroad, if the company is US-based
- LexGray 3y ago
  Given the well documented Russian tendency to wage nation hostile whisper campaigns and app algorithms natural tendencies to promote such speech we are in place where every country both democratic and not have CIA levels of disorder, new mental health issues, and general productivity drain introduced by social apps. I think every country should take a hard look at what is happening and should consider banning or time limiting some U.S. apps. I believe the underlying narrative of TikTok was with government control the algorithms would be purposefully tuned to promote disorder elsewhere which is a level of control the U.S. government does not have over U.S. companies and they were jealous (although with the level of information control during Desert Storm I am not 100% certain on that). However, I think this law was very premature and should have required evidence of tuning or actual war. While soldiers may have apps they should not the spies should know better. The China side where they have banned encryption apps also seems to be war preparation. A digital iron curtain while depressing for the population behind it is not something that can be torn down from the outside. A per app legal war seems an unfeasible use of congressional time when many Chinese smart device control apps require location to function and are on many phones. This also appears to be an opening shot by congress for putting up a U.S. national firewall if TikTok just leaves all US offices and continues business through web based offerings.
- account42 3y ago
  > Should other countries do the same with US companies? Absolutely.
- timeon 3y ago
  > Should other countries do the same with US companies? US government regularly (ab)uses FISA to get data on foreign nationals This is already in process in case of EU: https://noyb.eu/en/update-cnil-decides-eu-us-data-transfer-google-analytics-illegal https://noyb.eu/en/update-cnil-decides-eu-us-data-transfer-g...
pkphilip 3y ago
I agree. However, banning Tiktok won't change anything. If Tiketok is banned another company will take its place. Now coming to the subject of Facebook, Twitter etc, these apps pose the same threat to nations other than the US. As in, these apps serve US interests by pushing US propaganda onto the rest of the world and constantly monitors/tracks the individuals who have these apps installed. So a better option is to ban any type of tracking - on all apps. But it is extremely unlikely that this will be made into law.
- figassis 3y ago
  Why should the US to other governments jobs? I say this while not being American. I sometimes get upset when I see that every privacy and safety law is written to protect only US citizens, when it is the US that creates and fuels those predatory companies. And I understand they basically don’t care if they destroy everyone if it benefits them. Great. But what are our governments doing?
  - pkphilip 3y ago
    I am not saying that US should protect the rights of non-citizens but this will likely result in retaliatory action by other nations on apps from the US.. though I won't hold my breath
  - shiroiushi 3y ago
    >I sometimes get upset when I see that every privacy and safety law is written to protect only US citizens, Huh? Where did you get this idea? The GPDR in the EU isn't a US law, it's an EU law to protect EU citizens. The US government really doesn't do much to protect the privacy of US citizens, certainly nothing at the level of the EU's laws.
    - figassis 3y ago
      US and EU are very alike, I'm from neither.
      - 3y ago
throwaway_jeff 3y ago
The problem is with the bill being legal. For example, US citizens are free to listen to chinese radio stations, or chinese TV channels, read chinese books. Why the government needs to restrict what US citizens have access to in this specific case?
- hnpolicestate 3y ago
  The bill is unconstitutional. See the recent Montana ruling. https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/aclu-and-eff-applaud-ruling-halting-montana-tiktok-ban https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/aclu-and-eff-applaud-rul...
  - pb7 3y ago
    No it isn’t. One, national security is a federal matter not a state matter. Two, Montana outright banned the app whereas this bill forces divestiture. If TikTok doesn’t want to divest, too bad, bye bye.
    - gigatexal 3y ago
      Exactly this. The strongest case that the government can make in keeping this bill from being overturned in the courts is the national security one.
    - hnpolicestate 3y ago
      Extremely difficult to make a national security case for restricting speech or access to content. A court will also want to see a specific cause. Much of the Patriot Act is probably unconstitutional but the government had 9/11 as a national security justification. No similar justification exists regarding TikTok.
      - gigatexal 3y ago
        Let’s see. Lawyers are split on this. The national security context is the strongest case. And as an American and a voter I support this 100%. In exceptional cases I support Congress banning companies especially if they happen to originate from hostile nations, us hedge fund investors be damned.
throwaway4good 3y ago
This is the idea of the "clean network" originally brought forward by Trump. Basically all tech is clean and ok if comes from the good guys (the US and allies) and unclean if it comes from the bad guys (China, Russia ...). IMHO a sad state of affairs. We would be at a healthier and less hypocritical place if our tech was secure by design, and suppliers and platforms were subject to open objective criteria and rule of law wrt. censorship and surveillance.
- talldatethrow 3y ago
  My local library blocks Yandex but allows the Daily Stormer when using their wifi.
- shiroiushi 3y ago
  I don't see how "secure by design" tech would solve the TikTok problem. TikTok isn't hacking people's devices, it's tracking them and giving them disinformation and propaganda. Secure code isn't going to fix those problems; the only way to fix them is to simply not exchange data with tiktok.com.
- alcoholic_byte 3y ago
  Well a lot of agencies do that out of the box because secure by design is not believed. Trust but verify. You see that when intelligence agents talk about cooperation between partners. So in the grand scheme of things it wouldn't really change things. The one thing it would change though is that it would make the life a bit harder for cyber criminals(think downgrading tls connections). And the criteria you talked about, they are open. Called capitalism, and regulations those companies operate under. Along the way that abomination of surveillance capitalism was born though.
derelicta 3y ago
CIA and FBI propaganda campaigns on US and Europe's population are however acceptable somehow.
- pineaux 3y ago
  QAnon is not really accepted.
  - defrost 3y ago
    Perhaps not broadly within the US, but certainly by a handful of U.S. congressional representatives .. and seemingly seriously to boot, not just as an affectation of convenience.
  - frontalier 3y ago
    gp is probably referring to hollywood type of prop not the imageboard born type
- alcoholic_byte 3y ago
  Let's be critical here: We should differenciate between spying(passive) and misinformation/manipulation(active) Mentioning propaganda you choose the latter. Pray tell what are those campaigns you talk about? If you are posing this question you must have at least some in mind and ready at hand to share.
  - derelicta 3y ago
    Remember all those "independant" experts that were calling for the invasion of Irak because of those WMD? Or all those action movies relying on leased military equipments under the condition they will never portray the US military in a bad manner? Or Operation Mockingbird during the cold war? Those are all examples of US propaganda. There is much I left aside ofc, including anything related to the support of the ongoing "military operation" against the palestinian people.
    - alcoholic_byte 3y ago
miroljub 3y ago
Now, let's have other countries doing the same to Meta, Google, Microsoft and the likes. They all collect the data and send them to a foreign country (USA). They also use their algorithms to manipulate public meaning and to censor opposite opinions. Oh, and a US company spaying foreign citizens in not only legal in the USA, but also required.
- hobo_mark 3y ago
  > spaying foreign citizens now that would be a bridge too far...
  - miroljub 3y ago
    Hey, you found a typo, and that made me learn a new English word. Thanks for being a spelling-nazi :)
- tjarrett 3y ago
  Frankly... other countries should probably consider this IF they have an adversarial relationship with the US. And they already do -- neither China nor Russia allow Meta services in their countries. Nor do they allow most of Google's services.
  - miroljub 3y ago
    That means the data of US enemies is much safer than the data of US vassals^H allies.
    - tjarrett 3y ago
      I'm trying to understand this. I guess by "safer" you mean "less accessible by the US" and I suppose that is likely "true". But would you rather be in China and send an anti-Chinese message to your friend via... some app that China allows? Or would you rather be in the US and send an anti-US message to a friend? Both countries are going to try and snoop that data. Both are going to be successful. But in which would you feel "safer" -- meaning in which one is the government likely to take action against you?
whatasaas 3y ago
How do we know a China man doesn’t work at Sony and is listening in to all PlayStations In households? Actually with all these Alexa devices and so many employees at Amazon it’s probably best to make sure all these devices are controlled by the government. Yes we have freedom of speech and privacy but no where in there did it say all communication shouldn’t be owned and and monitored by your government. It’s for the greater good. Yea that mind set sounds awful.
- wrasee 3y ago
  Spies exist, yes that is a problem but it is a different problem. And the reach of one individual is just not the same as a nation state. I’m not sure I get your point.
lrvick 3y ago
> A spin to a US company is not enough. It needs to cease operating in the US because there’s no surety that even with a spin data and sharing won’t get back to ByteDance China. Can we apply this logic to Facebook, Twitter, Google, etc? I personally only support a ban of TikTok if we apply the logic universally. Such services are weapons, and weapons are sure to be weaponized. All centrally mass collected, plaintext or effectively plaintext data will sooner or later be co-opted by state actors. Best to ban the practice of bulk plaintext data storage entirely unless it can all be E2EE and anonymozed to the point of being useless to the companies storing it.
- gigatexal 3y ago
  > Can we apply this logic to Facebook, Twitter, Google, etc? I personally only support a ban of TikTok if we apply the logic universally. Such services are weapons, and weapons are sure to be weaponized. All centrally mass collected, plaintext or effectively plaintext data will sooner or later be co-opted by state actors. Best to ban the practice of bulk plaintext data storage entirely unless it can all be E2EE and anonymozed to the point of being useless to the companies storing it. We can ostensibly anyway regulate the American social media companies whereas the Chinese ones are a black box even though they might operate here under an American entity. That’s why we are here. They claimed they didn’t share data but they do. And that’s how the whole algorithm and value works
scotty79 3y ago
Why trade with enemy at all? Why do money transfers? Mutual investments? Why let enemy people live in your country? Every step you do to isolate yourself from your enemy makes them even more your enemy. At the end of this process is war. Completely unsurprising. Pretty much inevitable. Alternatively you could accept that you are loosing competition in some fields without turning it into mortal conflict.
troq13 3y ago
>A spin to a US company is not enough. It needs to cease operating in the US because there’s no surety that even with a spin data and sharing won’t get back to ByteDance China. At this level of paranoia you may as well ban Facebook and other social media as there is no guarantee their data is not getting intercepted by China.
user3939382 3y ago
This was passed because TikTok posts are not supporting US (horrendous) foreign policy. There are recorded statements from congressmen of them discussing and saying exactly this, it’s not even a secret.
troyvit 3y ago
To me the real national security threat is that Americans don't know how to use social media safely. > The potential for abuse from the CCP on the minds of US users exists The exact same way Facebook and other U.S. social networks abuse the minds of US users.[1] > as does the tracking the app could do and every data point that is generated is stored and potentially useful for blackmail or otherwise on members of Congress or others. Yep, and in a similar way every large US player hoards as much data about its users as it can get away with, even if it doesn't know what it'll do with it, and eventually loses said data in a giant breach, which can lead to blackmail, etc.[2] And here we sit, either toothlessly regulating the U.S. actors or attempting to ban the foreign ones instead of teaching people how to actually use social media in a way that helps them instead of melting their brains and exposing their deepest secrets to malicious actors. I'm not much of a capitalist or a social darwinist but I'd say the best thing to do is let people learn the hard way. We seem cool to do that with junk food,[3][4] and the similarities in social engineering between the social media and junk food are striking. [1] https://www.chicagotribune.com/2023/08/11/waukegan-district-60-joining-effort-to-sue-facebook-tiktok-other-social-media-for-perceived-harms-to-children/ https://www.chicagotribune.com/2023/08/11/waukegan-district-... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_data_breaches https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_data_breaches [3] https://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/24/magazine/the-extraordinary-science-of-junk-food.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/24/magazine/the-extraordinar... [4] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21999689/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21999689/
huytersd 3y ago
I want it to shut down because I believe it’s a bad influence on kids in general.
mbs159 3y ago
The red scare is real, holy shit.

logicchains 3y ago

>I see this as a national security threat that it is. The US government is a far greater danger to the average American than the Chinese government is, and this bill just gives even more power to the US government to dominate its citizens.

computerfriend 3y ago
This statement is not obviously true.
- retrochameleon 3y ago
  It is also a logical fallacy. Even if it is true that the US is a greater threat in some sense, that doesn't invalidate that China is also a threat. It also doesn't justify not taking this action.
- BeFlatXIII 3y ago
  [ citation needed ]
nyokodo 3y ago
> The US government is a far greater danger to the average American than the Chinese government is The US government could, if it wanted to, slaughter the entire civilian population of the US right now and no one could stop them. I don’t believe for a second that China would be so restrained if it suddenly had that power over the USA. So, while it’s true that having the power that it does makes the US government a potential threat, it is nowhere near as much of an actual threat as China.
- 4gotunameagain 3y ago
  Just to spell it out, you are suggesting that if "China" could, would conduct a mass scale genocide against Americans ? And you base that where exactly ?
- raxxorraxor 3y ago
  Very doubtful. Military would defect en masse and you would get a civil war where government gets the boot in the end rather sooner than later.
  - whatshisface 3y ago
    It's not defection to refuse to carry out unlawful orders, soldiers can be punished for carrying out orders that they knew were unlawful, or orders which are so obviously unlawful that the soldier should have known. The united states does not have an SS.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- FactKnower69 3y ago
  >The US government could, if it wanted to, slaughter the entire civilian population of the US right now and no one could stop them. I don’t believe for a second that China would be so restrained if it suddenly had that power over the USA. What the fuck are you talking about???
RoyalHenOil 3y ago
You are also more likely to be murdered by a loved oned than by a stranger, but this doesn't mean that it's rational to open your door to strangers and bar it to your loved ones.

wannacboatmovie 3y ago

Musk has already alluded to bringing back Vine, so the eradication of TikTok would be no great loss. As an aside, I always viewed TikTok as a real world analogue to the mind control subplot from Zoolander (Frankie says 'relax')...

kmeisthax 3y ago
We already have YouTube, Instagram, Snapchat, and even LinkedIn to fill the short video void - bringing back Vine would be a Johnny-come-lately move.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
moomin 3y ago
Twitter couldn’t make Vine work. Trying to do it in the severely weakened form it’s in now strikes me as less plausible than his Mars plans.

fallingfrog 3y ago

This whole thing is baffling to me. What are you talking about? What enemy? I would rather someone in China has my information than my own government. China has no power over me; my own government does. I don’t care if china knows whether I like cheesecake better than blueberry pie. They’re interested in monitoring their own citizens, im sure- for the same reasons our own government agencies and corporate behemoths monitor ours. But I don’t see what use china could have for data about Americans. Look: the Cold War is over. And communism is a red herring. The world has changed. For some reason Americas elites view TikTok as a threat, probably because they don’t have the kind of total access to their servers that they’re accustomed to with American firms. But that has little to do with regular Americans. And there’s no argument other than decades old red baiting tropes they can think of to try to get us to care.

Log_out_ 3y ago
The cold war of authoritarian VS democracy never ended. And China has the ability to turn anyone with mainland access into a asset by holding family hostage and models itself after the British empire. The Indians did have no quarrel with the king of India, until they did. Westcentrism and neutrality are no strategy now that the fascists march again.
- fallingfrog 3y ago
  Word salad. There isn’t really any coherent thought there for me to respond to.
  - Log_out_ 3y ago
    Worldviewsalad, there is no coherent concept for me to reply to. Not even values.
    - fallingfrog 3y ago
      Separating the world into “good guys” and “bad guys” does not constitute “values”. That is the thinking of a child.

aprilthird2021 3y ago

Can someone please explain to me what the security threat is? I still haven't understood it. If it's that China will know more about Americans through data ingestion, they can already do that. Americans willingly upload every little bit of their lives to YouTube, Twitch, and tons of other platforms. Not to mention that Temu is the most downloaded shopping app in the US. And what kind of attack can TikTok information provide that other publicly available online information scraped from other social media sites cannot? If it's that China can show American citizens a curated list of topics and videos to make Americans think certain ways or vote certain ways, then I absolutely think that's a 1A problem. That's the exact same rhetoric tons of repressive Communist countries used and still use to deny people the freedom to read books from outside, watch movies from outside, read newspapers from outside, etc. And I'm never going to accept the idea that information (even full on lies) so dangerous that people shouldn't be allowed to see them.

4gotunameagain 3y ago
It is because it is the adversary who controls the algorithms and suggestions. The establishment wants and needs a monopoly in shaping the opinions and thoughts of its citizens.
rockemsockem 3y ago
I *think* the main national security argument is that TikTok can tweak the algorithm to incite discord and inflame conflicts within the US. They can do this far more effectively from their own platform than by doing it on other social networks via bots and fake accounts. I tend to come down with the same opinion as you though. It's all still essentially a first amendment issue and the negatives I listed aren't going to disappear if TikTok goes away.
- whatshisface 3y ago
  "Don’t think you are going to conceal faults by concealing evidence that they ever existed." - President Dwight D. Eisenhower.
- aprilthird2021 3y ago

noobermin 3y ago

To be honest, the use of the word "enemy" is far too strong, it sounds like we are at war with them while they somehow supply half of our goods at prices we've grown accustomed to. "Adversary" is a weaker word that is more apt (which you use later), where the US is not on the friendliest terms with China but isn't in an outright war with them. Words matter, at the very least to avoid starting nationalistic flamewars here on HN.

beebmam 3y ago
The US is in a cold war with China as long as China is open to the idea of the use of military force on its neighbors, including Taiwan. A cold war is the only alternative to surrendering the free Taiwanese people to communist rule, and a hot war.
- omnimus 3y ago
  US is also open to the idea to use military force and not only on their neighbours but also on countries far away. US is in cold war with China because China might soon be economicaly getting upper hand.
  - mort96 3y ago
    I don't get your first paragraph. Of course the US is open to the idea of using military force against, well, pretty much anyone. I don't see how that's relevant, other than as some form of pointing out hypocrisy? Or are you actually saying that "because the US is prepared to do its own military action, it categorically doesn't enter cold wars with other countries based on which military actions the other country could do"? I don't understand.
    - ExoticPearTree 3y ago
      Hypocrisy mostly. You can’t tell others to stop doing what you keep doing. The US considers all of LATAM as his own back yard. Why can’t China consider all of Asia as its own back yard? This is what upsets people, the sheer size of hypocrisy.

troupo 3y ago

Should other countries do the same with US companies? US government regularly (ab)uses FISA to get data on foreign nationals: https://transparency.meta.com/reports/government-data-requests/ https://transparency.meta.com/reports/government-data-reques... > Parallel to this we need a federal national data privacy law that protects us but also cracks down on the huge industry of data brokers selling Americans’ data to anyone that has cash. And also dismantle the law where the US can request any data on any person, even abroad, if the company is US-based

LexGray 3y ago
Given the well documented Russian tendency to wage nation hostile whisper campaigns and app algorithms natural tendencies to promote such speech we are in place where every country both democratic and not have CIA levels of disorder, new mental health issues, and general productivity drain introduced by social apps. I think every country should take a hard look at what is happening and should consider banning or time limiting some U.S. apps. I believe the underlying narrative of TikTok was with government control the algorithms would be purposefully tuned to promote disorder elsewhere which is a level of control the U.S. government does not have over U.S. companies and they were jealous (although with the level of information control during Desert Storm I am not 100% certain on that). However, I think this law was very premature and should have required evidence of tuning or actual war. While soldiers may have apps they should not the spies should know better. The China side where they have banned encryption apps also seems to be war preparation. A digital iron curtain while depressing for the population behind it is not something that can be torn down from the outside. A per app legal war seems an unfeasible use of congressional time when many Chinese smart device control apps require location to function and are on many phones. This also appears to be an opening shot by congress for putting up a U.S. national firewall if TikTok just leaves all US offices and continues business through web based offerings.
account42 3y ago
> Should other countries do the same with US companies? Absolutely.
timeon 3y ago
> Should other countries do the same with US companies? US government regularly (ab)uses FISA to get data on foreign nationals This is already in process in case of EU: https://noyb.eu/en/update-cnil-decides-eu-us-data-transfer-google-analytics-illegal https://noyb.eu/en/update-cnil-decides-eu-us-data-transfer-g...

pkphilip 3y ago

I agree. However, banning Tiktok won't change anything. If Tiketok is banned another company will take its place. Now coming to the subject of Facebook, Twitter etc, these apps pose the same threat to nations other than the US. As in, these apps serve US interests by pushing US propaganda onto the rest of the world and constantly monitors/tracks the individuals who have these apps installed. So a better option is to ban any type of tracking - on all apps. But it is extremely unlikely that this will be made into law.

figassis 3y ago
Why should the US to other governments jobs? I say this while not being American. I sometimes get upset when I see that every privacy and safety law is written to protect only US citizens, when it is the US that creates and fuels those predatory companies. And I understand they basically don’t care if they destroy everyone if it benefits them. Great. But what are our governments doing?
- pkphilip 3y ago
  I am not saying that US should protect the rights of non-citizens but this will likely result in retaliatory action by other nations on apps from the US.. though I won't hold my breath
- shiroiushi 3y ago
  >I sometimes get upset when I see that every privacy and safety law is written to protect only US citizens, Huh? Where did you get this idea? The GPDR in the EU isn't a US law, it's an EU law to protect EU citizens. The US government really doesn't do much to protect the privacy of US citizens, certainly nothing at the level of the EU's laws.
  - figassis 3y ago
    US and EU are very alike, I'm from neither.
    - 3y ago

throwaway_jeff 3y ago

The problem is with the bill being legal. For example, US citizens are free to listen to chinese radio stations, or chinese TV channels, read chinese books. Why the government needs to restrict what US citizens have access to in this specific case?

hnpolicestate 3y ago
The bill is unconstitutional. See the recent Montana ruling. https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/aclu-and-eff-applaud-ruling-halting-montana-tiktok-ban https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/aclu-and-eff-applaud-rul...
- pb7 3y ago
  No it isn’t. One, national security is a federal matter not a state matter. Two, Montana outright banned the app whereas this bill forces divestiture. If TikTok doesn’t want to divest, too bad, bye bye.
  - gigatexal 3y ago
    Exactly this. The strongest case that the government can make in keeping this bill from being overturned in the courts is the national security one.
  - hnpolicestate 3y ago
    Extremely difficult to make a national security case for restricting speech or access to content. A court will also want to see a specific cause. Much of the Patriot Act is probably unconstitutional but the government had 9/11 as a national security justification. No similar justification exists regarding TikTok.
    - gigatexal 3y ago
      Let’s see. Lawyers are split on this. The national security context is the strongest case. And as an American and a voter I support this 100%. In exceptional cases I support Congress banning companies especially if they happen to originate from hostile nations, us hedge fund investors be damned.

throwaway4good 3y ago

This is the idea of the "clean network" originally brought forward by Trump. Basically all tech is clean and ok if comes from the good guys (the US and allies) and unclean if it comes from the bad guys (China, Russia ...). IMHO a sad state of affairs. We would be at a healthier and less hypocritical place if our tech was secure by design, and suppliers and platforms were subject to open objective criteria and rule of law wrt. censorship and surveillance.

talldatethrow 3y ago
My local library blocks Yandex but allows the Daily Stormer when using their wifi.
shiroiushi 3y ago
I don't see how "secure by design" tech would solve the TikTok problem. TikTok isn't hacking people's devices, it's tracking them and giving them disinformation and propaganda. Secure code isn't going to fix those problems; the only way to fix them is to simply not exchange data with tiktok.com.
alcoholic_byte 3y ago
Well a lot of agencies do that out of the box because secure by design is not believed. Trust but verify. You see that when intelligence agents talk about cooperation between partners. So in the grand scheme of things it wouldn't really change things. The one thing it would change though is that it would make the life a bit harder for cyber criminals(think downgrading tls connections). And the criteria you talked about, they are open. Called capitalism, and regulations those companies operate under. Along the way that abomination of surveillance capitalism was born though.

derelicta 3y ago

CIA and FBI propaganda campaigns on US and Europe's population are however acceptable somehow.

pineaux 3y ago
QAnon is not really accepted.
- defrost 3y ago
  Perhaps not broadly within the US, but certainly by a handful of U.S. congressional representatives .. and seemingly seriously to boot, not just as an affectation of convenience.
- frontalier 3y ago
  gp is probably referring to hollywood type of prop not the imageboard born type
alcoholic_byte 3y ago
Let's be critical here: We should differenciate between spying(passive) and misinformation/manipulation(active) Mentioning propaganda you choose the latter. Pray tell what are those campaigns you talk about? If you are posing this question you must have at least some in mind and ready at hand to share.
- derelicta 3y ago
  Remember all those "independant" experts that were calling for the invasion of Irak because of those WMD? Or all those action movies relying on leased military equipments under the condition they will never portray the US military in a bad manner? Or Operation Mockingbird during the cold war? Those are all examples of US propaganda. There is much I left aside ofc, including anything related to the support of the ongoing "military operation" against the palestinian people.
  - alcoholic_byte 3y ago

miroljub 3y ago

Now, let's have other countries doing the same to Meta, Google, Microsoft and the likes. They all collect the data and send them to a foreign country (USA). They also use their algorithms to manipulate public meaning and to censor opposite opinions. Oh, and a US company spaying foreign citizens in not only legal in the USA, but also required.

hobo_mark 3y ago
> spaying foreign citizens now that would be a bridge too far...
- miroljub 3y ago
  Hey, you found a typo, and that made me learn a new English word. Thanks for being a spelling-nazi :)
tjarrett 3y ago
Frankly... other countries should probably consider this IF they have an adversarial relationship with the US. And they already do -- neither China nor Russia allow Meta services in their countries. Nor do they allow most of Google's services.
- miroljub 3y ago
  That means the data of US enemies is much safer than the data of US vassals^H allies.
  - tjarrett 3y ago
    I'm trying to understand this. I guess by "safer" you mean "less accessible by the US" and I suppose that is likely "true". But would you rather be in China and send an anti-Chinese message to your friend via... some app that China allows? Or would you rather be in the US and send an anti-US message to a friend? Both countries are going to try and snoop that data. Both are going to be successful. But in which would you feel "safer" -- meaning in which one is the government likely to take action against you?

whatasaas 3y ago

How do we know a China man doesn’t work at Sony and is listening in to all PlayStations In households? Actually with all these Alexa devices and so many employees at Amazon it’s probably best to make sure all these devices are controlled by the government. Yes we have freedom of speech and privacy but no where in there did it say all communication shouldn’t be owned and and monitored by your government. It’s for the greater good. Yea that mind set sounds awful.

wrasee 3y ago
Spies exist, yes that is a problem but it is a different problem. And the reach of one individual is just not the same as a nation state. I’m not sure I get your point.

lrvick 3y ago

> A spin to a US company is not enough. It needs to cease operating in the US because there’s no surety that even with a spin data and sharing won’t get back to ByteDance China. Can we apply this logic to Facebook, Twitter, Google, etc? I personally only support a ban of TikTok if we apply the logic universally. Such services are weapons, and weapons are sure to be weaponized. All centrally mass collected, plaintext or effectively plaintext data will sooner or later be co-opted by state actors. Best to ban the practice of bulk plaintext data storage entirely unless it can all be E2EE and anonymozed to the point of being useless to the companies storing it.

gigatexal 3y ago
> Can we apply this logic to Facebook, Twitter, Google, etc? I personally only support a ban of TikTok if we apply the logic universally. Such services are weapons, and weapons are sure to be weaponized. All centrally mass collected, plaintext or effectively plaintext data will sooner or later be co-opted by state actors. Best to ban the practice of bulk plaintext data storage entirely unless it can all be E2EE and anonymozed to the point of being useless to the companies storing it. We can ostensibly anyway regulate the American social media companies whereas the Chinese ones are a black box even though they might operate here under an American entity. That’s why we are here. They claimed they didn’t share data but they do. And that’s how the whole algorithm and value works

scotty79 3y ago

Why trade with enemy at all? Why do money transfers? Mutual investments? Why let enemy people live in your country? Every step you do to isolate yourself from your enemy makes them even more your enemy. At the end of this process is war. Completely unsurprising. Pretty much inevitable. Alternatively you could accept that you are loosing competition in some fields without turning it into mortal conflict.

troq13 3y ago

>A spin to a US company is not enough. It needs to cease operating in the US because there’s no surety that even with a spin data and sharing won’t get back to ByteDance China. At this level of paranoia you may as well ban Facebook and other social media as there is no guarantee their data is not getting intercepted by China.

user3939382 3y ago

This was passed because TikTok posts are not supporting US (horrendous) foreign policy. There are recorded statements from congressmen of them discussing and saying exactly this, it’s not even a secret.

troyvit 3y ago

To me the real national security threat is that Americans don't know how to use social media safely. > The potential for abuse from the CCP on the minds of US users exists The exact same way Facebook and other U.S. social networks abuse the minds of US users.[1] > as does the tracking the app could do and every data point that is generated is stored and potentially useful for blackmail or otherwise on members of Congress or others. Yep, and in a similar way every large US player hoards as much data about its users as it can get away with, even if it doesn't know what it'll do with it, and eventually loses said data in a giant breach, which can lead to blackmail, etc.[2] And here we sit, either toothlessly regulating the U.S. actors or attempting to ban the foreign ones instead of teaching people how to actually use social media in a way that helps them instead of melting their brains and exposing their deepest secrets to malicious actors. I'm not much of a capitalist or a social darwinist but I'd say the best thing to do is let people learn the hard way. We seem cool to do that with junk food,[3][4] and the similarities in social engineering between the social media and junk food are striking. [1] https://www.chicagotribune.com/2023/08/11/waukegan-district-60-joining-effort-to-sue-facebook-tiktok-other-social-media-for-perceived-harms-to-children/ https://www.chicagotribune.com/2023/08/11/waukegan-district-... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_data_breaches https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_data_breaches [3] https://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/24/magazine/the-extraordinary-science-of-junk-food.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/24/magazine/the-extraordinar... [4] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21999689/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21999689/

huytersd 3y ago

I want it to shut down because I believe it’s a bad influence on kids in general.

mbs159 3y ago

The red scare is real, holy shit.