5 ms·

He says 33% of hiring managers admit to creating job reqs and advertising them with no intention of filling them so that the existing people on the teams those

He says 33% of hiring managers admit to creating job reqs and advertising them with no intention of filling them so that the existing people on the teams those new hires would go to feel that help is on the way and they don't quit. But it's a trick to keep people from leaving and to be able to continue to overwork their employees and squeeze out a bit more before burnout.

tptacek 2y ago
Has anyone here ever seen this done, in any job they worked?
- tshaddox 2y ago
  I’ve never seen (as far as I know) the whole lying to your own team about hiring intentions, but I’ve been on small teams that aren’t actively hiring but leave stock job descriptions posted from the last time they were.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    I've seen one case where a job ad must have stayed up for years, though I only noticed it after the company closed down.
- thaumaturgy 2y ago
  Yes. About five years ago (so, not new), and for a smaller company. After months of carrying multiple projects myself, including one that deserved at least three more devs on it, I had run out of all the nice ways to plead with management to actually hire someone. So, during a companywide meeting, I loudly and firmly said I'd be out the door in 30 days if they didn't have someone started by then. They hired someone, I handled the technical interview, I trained him, and then they suggested maybe I should find a new job.
  - hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
    > So, during a companywide meeting, I loudly and firmly said I'd be out the door in 30 days if they didn't have someone started by then. Why on earth would you do this in a companywide meeting?
    - muro 2y ago
      Maybe it was a 10 people company, then it might be the right place. Otherwise, lol.
      - hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
        If it's anything more than a 2 person company, it's still not the right place.
        thaumaturgy 2y ago
        Well, let's see, I had met with my boss, I met with my boss's boss, who was also the CEO, I met with my boss and the CEO, I met with my boss and the CEO and the cofounder. I wrote emails and had hallway chats and met in person. I asked, asked again, more formally outlined the situation, pleaded, asked for an update, and then said they weren't leaving me a lot of options. Throughout this period they kept promising they were trying to hire but I hadn't seen a single resume or interview. Most jobs, I'd just bounce and leave 'em hanging at that point. But, I actually liked most of the people I worked with, they just had a terrible CEO that had a bad habit of seeing devs strictly as cost centers. I wanted them to fix it, and this was an appropriate move for that company and the company's culture. Thanks for your judgement though, wish you'd been there to tell me how to be better.
        Simon_ORourke 2y ago
        It's a business though, and devs need to contribute to the bottom line. How would you have management treat devs other than an operational cost?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- reactordev 2y ago
  Yes. The tell is when the req has been open for a few weeks yet no one has been interviewed in person (or video) yet. The manager will claim they have, but have they really?
- 20after4 2y ago
  I've definitely seen evidence of this from a few big name tech employers. Revolving job postings that are regularly re-posted with the exact same details, and it appears that they never actually filled any positions. It's possible that they are hiring a lot of the same job description but these are sort of specialized roles with highly specific job requirements. I have a hard time believing that they are constantly hiring people for a very specific job description and continue to have openings for the same. Seems especially unlikely after they recently had big layoffs. More likely ghost jobs. I think that they aren't planning to fill unless a highly qualified candidate comes along that happens to be desperate and willing to accept a low offer. When that happens, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they hire them to replace someone who is earning significantly more. Potential for big cost savings at the expense of intangible accumulated institutional knowledge and team cohesion/morale.
- latenightcoding 2y ago
  As an ML consultant, I’ve seen it happen. It’s hard to find good people and most want to work on impactful things that require big teams, CEOs will tell you to stick around because they plan to hire, soon.
- YZF 2y ago
  No company I ever worked for did this but I have seen this once when looking. A job posting that is basically perpetual for a single role by a relatively large company with a bad hiring reputation. The posting is always up, for this single role, I think for more than a year now, when there's no way you can't find many people that could do that role. I applied and I had to go through some silliness before they told me they have a better candidate. A year later, that job is still posted. I would guess this practice is pretty rare. There can be stale postings e.g. when a large company pauses hiring but nothing along the lines of what parent is describing.
- hlfshell 2y ago
  Yes. Interviewed someone that the team loved. We said definitely hire. HR said they didn't accept the offer and went elsewhere. What they didn't know is that the person LinkedIn messaged me saying they enjoyed the team, and were disappointed we passed, respectfully asking what I would recommend to work on for their interviewing. Opinions on whether to reach out after a rejection aside, it highlighted what I already suspected; the job was never going to be filled, and even as the team lead they were lying to me and the team. When there was yet another round of layoffs months later, the spot remained, unsurprisingly, unfilled.
  - brandall10 2y ago
    That is wild. Let me get this straight - the company actively lied to the team in an effort to get their hopes up that help was coming... by actually giving the extra overhead of sourcing a new hire? Were you guys actively trying to fill the role (screen dozens of candidates, several went through final rounds, etc), or was this just some passive thing where recruiting tried to push someone who looked great?
    - ang_cire 2y ago
      At my current job, we had a position that an absolutely stellar candidate supposedly ghosted HR on. Same thing; candidate reached out to me asking about next steps, and I was like, "let me check". Went and asked HR, and was told they'd handle the rest, and not to talk to candidates outside of HR-scheduled interviews. Never heard back again. That was 3 months ago (and 3 months into the position posting), and the position is still unfilled.
      - brandall10 2y ago
        Same question - were you and are you continuing to actively interview candidates? That's the mystery for me, why put the team through a charade that actively harms their productivity? The only thing I can think of is the candidate disclosed something that would be a legal red flag and can't really divulge that is an issue without threat of a lawsuit. Or something came up in a background check, but I imagine it didn't get to that point if the candidate reached out to you directly.
- naet 2y ago
  I haven't personally seen that. I've seen us open a job and get really bad applicants, or one good applicant who ends up taking another job for whatever reasons, and have it go unfilled for long periods of time. I think we probably could have made the hire with a higher salary or looking in other regions or both, but the company wasn't flexible on those things. I've also seen my company open applications for a job that is almost definitely going to be an internal promotion rather than a new hire, but for the sake of "fairness" they interview a handful of other people. Hiring is expensive. It takes a lot of time and energy to do interviews and screens and stuff like that, and usually some higher ups are involved in the process, so wasting their time is probably worse than just not posting the job if you're not going to hire.
- zerr 2y ago
  You can often see this even on HN Who's Hiring threads - people post the same exact blobs again and again over the years. I tend to believe that this is a form of masked advertising as well.
  - jonatron 2y ago
    DrChrono was "hiring" a developer for years
  - zerr 2y ago
    EDIT: This is also why candidates should spend as little time as possible when applying for jobs, omitting cover letters and refusing to fill huge forms. The legit job poster companies should understand this and stop requiring cover letters and so on.
_nalply 2y ago
I thought that's because Corporate wants to show that they are doing good, in fact so good that they look for employees. Probably Hanlon's Razor applies: «Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.» In other words, it's a mixture of laziness, some need for employees but not following through, rigid software for job applications, corporate politics and plain stupidity. I imagine one example how it might happen more or less like this: - A product owner sees that their team is overworked - They ask for a job opening or just enter the job description in the software - They get shot down by someone higher up or they are replaced or fired themselves - The process starts anyway and nobody is responsible for incoming applications
cpcat 2y ago
I'm a witness of that. Both to threaten that you're being replaced once we find someone and to make you think there is someone coming to help. I know for a fact it's the former. Since there was no hiring manager nor HR where that happened, I believe this is a common practice which is being advised to startups at some level. I've seen three or four YC startups do that which makes me wonder if someone is spreading this terrible practice among their network
red-iron-pine 2y ago
> so that the existing people on the teams those new hires would go to feel that help is on the way and they don't quit. I don't buy the reasoning/justification. The HR folks I worked with threw out fake job adverts to gauge the quality of applicants, salary expectations, and ability/speed to fine new hires. Essentially lets you create a few action plans if Jimmy in Accounting gets a better gig, or gets fired for sexually harassing people. Also generates plans / forecasting for layoffs, or windfalls that demand many new bodies.

tptacek 2y ago

Has anyone here ever seen this done, in any job they worked?

tshaddox 2y ago
I’ve never seen (as far as I know) the whole lying to your own team about hiring intentions, but I’ve been on small teams that aren’t actively hiring but leave stock job descriptions posted from the last time they were.
- ben_w 2y ago
  I've seen one case where a job ad must have stayed up for years, though I only noticed it after the company closed down.
thaumaturgy 2y ago
Yes. About five years ago (so, not new), and for a smaller company. After months of carrying multiple projects myself, including one that deserved at least three more devs on it, I had run out of all the nice ways to plead with management to actually hire someone. So, during a companywide meeting, I loudly and firmly said I'd be out the door in 30 days if they didn't have someone started by then. They hired someone, I handled the technical interview, I trained him, and then they suggested maybe I should find a new job.
- hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
  > So, during a companywide meeting, I loudly and firmly said I'd be out the door in 30 days if they didn't have someone started by then. Why on earth would you do this in a companywide meeting?
  - muro 2y ago
    Maybe it was a 10 people company, then it might be the right place. Otherwise, lol.
    - hn_throwaway_99 2y ago
      If it's anything more than a 2 person company, it's still not the right place.
      - thaumaturgy 2y ago
        Well, let's see, I had met with my boss, I met with my boss's boss, who was also the CEO, I met with my boss and the CEO, I met with my boss and the CEO and the cofounder. I wrote emails and had hallway chats and met in person. I asked, asked again, more formally outlined the situation, pleaded, asked for an update, and then said they weren't leaving me a lot of options. Throughout this period they kept promising they were trying to hire but I hadn't seen a single resume or interview. Most jobs, I'd just bounce and leave 'em hanging at that point. But, I actually liked most of the people I worked with, they just had a terrible CEO that had a bad habit of seeing devs strictly as cost centers. I wanted them to fix it, and this was an appropriate move for that company and the company's culture. Thanks for your judgement though, wish you'd been there to tell me how to be better.
        Simon_ORourke 2y ago
        It's a business though, and devs need to contribute to the bottom line. How would you have management treat devs other than an operational cost?
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
reactordev 2y ago
Yes. The tell is when the req has been open for a few weeks yet no one has been interviewed in person (or video) yet. The manager will claim they have, but have they really?
20after4 2y ago
I've definitely seen evidence of this from a few big name tech employers. Revolving job postings that are regularly re-posted with the exact same details, and it appears that they never actually filled any positions. It's possible that they are hiring a lot of the same job description but these are sort of specialized roles with highly specific job requirements. I have a hard time believing that they are constantly hiring people for a very specific job description and continue to have openings for the same. Seems especially unlikely after they recently had big layoffs. More likely ghost jobs. I think that they aren't planning to fill unless a highly qualified candidate comes along that happens to be desperate and willing to accept a low offer. When that happens, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they hire them to replace someone who is earning significantly more. Potential for big cost savings at the expense of intangible accumulated institutional knowledge and team cohesion/morale.
latenightcoding 2y ago
As an ML consultant, I’ve seen it happen. It’s hard to find good people and most want to work on impactful things that require big teams, CEOs will tell you to stick around because they plan to hire, soon.
YZF 2y ago
No company I ever worked for did this but I have seen this once when looking. A job posting that is basically perpetual for a single role by a relatively large company with a bad hiring reputation. The posting is always up, for this single role, I think for more than a year now, when there's no way you can't find many people that could do that role. I applied and I had to go through some silliness before they told me they have a better candidate. A year later, that job is still posted. I would guess this practice is pretty rare. There can be stale postings e.g. when a large company pauses hiring but nothing along the lines of what parent is describing.
hlfshell 2y ago
Yes. Interviewed someone that the team loved. We said definitely hire. HR said they didn't accept the offer and went elsewhere. What they didn't know is that the person LinkedIn messaged me saying they enjoyed the team, and were disappointed we passed, respectfully asking what I would recommend to work on for their interviewing. Opinions on whether to reach out after a rejection aside, it highlighted what I already suspected; the job was never going to be filled, and even as the team lead they were lying to me and the team. When there was yet another round of layoffs months later, the spot remained, unsurprisingly, unfilled.
- brandall10 2y ago
  That is wild. Let me get this straight - the company actively lied to the team in an effort to get their hopes up that help was coming... by actually giving the extra overhead of sourcing a new hire? Were you guys actively trying to fill the role (screen dozens of candidates, several went through final rounds, etc), or was this just some passive thing where recruiting tried to push someone who looked great?
  - ang_cire 2y ago
    At my current job, we had a position that an absolutely stellar candidate supposedly ghosted HR on. Same thing; candidate reached out to me asking about next steps, and I was like, "let me check". Went and asked HR, and was told they'd handle the rest, and not to talk to candidates outside of HR-scheduled interviews. Never heard back again. That was 3 months ago (and 3 months into the position posting), and the position is still unfilled.
    - brandall10 2y ago
      Same question - were you and are you continuing to actively interview candidates? That's the mystery for me, why put the team through a charade that actively harms their productivity? The only thing I can think of is the candidate disclosed something that would be a legal red flag and can't really divulge that is an issue without threat of a lawsuit. Or something came up in a background check, but I imagine it didn't get to that point if the candidate reached out to you directly.
naet 2y ago
I haven't personally seen that. I've seen us open a job and get really bad applicants, or one good applicant who ends up taking another job for whatever reasons, and have it go unfilled for long periods of time. I think we probably could have made the hire with a higher salary or looking in other regions or both, but the company wasn't flexible on those things. I've also seen my company open applications for a job that is almost definitely going to be an internal promotion rather than a new hire, but for the sake of "fairness" they interview a handful of other people. Hiring is expensive. It takes a lot of time and energy to do interviews and screens and stuff like that, and usually some higher ups are involved in the process, so wasting their time is probably worse than just not posting the job if you're not going to hire.
zerr 2y ago
You can often see this even on HN Who's Hiring threads - people post the same exact blobs again and again over the years. I tend to believe that this is a form of masked advertising as well.
- jonatron 2y ago
  DrChrono was "hiring" a developer for years
- zerr 2y ago
  EDIT: This is also why candidates should spend as little time as possible when applying for jobs, omitting cover letters and refusing to fill huge forms. The legit job poster companies should understand this and stop requiring cover letters and so on.

_nalply 2y ago

I thought that's because Corporate wants to show that they are doing good, in fact so good that they look for employees. Probably Hanlon's Razor applies: «Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.» In other words, it's a mixture of laziness, some need for employees but not following through, rigid software for job applications, corporate politics and plain stupidity. I imagine one example how it might happen more or less like this: - A product owner sees that their team is overworked - They ask for a job opening or just enter the job description in the software - They get shot down by someone higher up or they are replaced or fired themselves - The process starts anyway and nobody is responsible for incoming applications

cpcat 2y ago

I'm a witness of that. Both to threaten that you're being replaced once we find someone and to make you think there is someone coming to help. I know for a fact it's the former. Since there was no hiring manager nor HR where that happened, I believe this is a common practice which is being advised to startups at some level. I've seen three or four YC startups do that which makes me wonder if someone is spreading this terrible practice among their network

red-iron-pine 2y ago

> so that the existing people on the teams those new hires would go to feel that help is on the way and they don't quit. I don't buy the reasoning/justification. The HR folks I worked with threw out fake job adverts to gauge the quality of applicants, salary expectations, and ability/speed to fine new hires. Essentially lets you create a few action plans if Jimmy in Accounting gets a better gig, or gets fired for sexually harassing people. Also generates plans / forecasting for layoffs, or windfalls that demand many new bodies.