8 ms·

Most Tech Jobs Are Jokes and I Am Not Laughing

108 points by ludicity 2y ago

hilbert42 2y ago
"It is a cold Anzac day in Melbourne, and I am brooding." I'm in Sydney, and Lest We Forget. "It has become exceedingly clear to me that the average company is not a suitable environment for someone that cares about the craft of programming." I'm not in a position to do this topic justice as it's a too big a subject to cover in a post such as this. Nevertheless, l'd extend that statement to include essentially any craft or expertise. Companies have profit as their primary objective and this rarely fits well with the specifics of one's craft or expertise. The worst case comes when the stated objectives of the company or organization (what it does to make money) are very different to those of the employee's skills. For instance, the employee is employed in some technical area of a company that has nothing to do with technology such as banking, finance, the arts and various government bureaucracies. My worst job was working for a government bureaucracy that had nothing to do with technology, it was soul destroying and horrible. As head of a technical department I found myself continually embroiled in matters that had nothing to do with what my department actually did, and trying to explain what my staff actually did in ways senior management could understand was a fruitless exercises—one may as well have tried to teach a dog calculus. What was so frustrating was that I was in a secure position and that the only escape meant I would have to ditch tenure and security, which is eventually what I did.
- aleph_minus_one 2y ago
  > The worst case comes when the stated objectives of the company or organization (what it does to make money) are very different to those of the employee's skills. For instance, the employee is employed in some technical area of a company that has nothing to do with technology such as banking, finance, the arts and various government bureaucracies. > My worst job was working for a government bureaucracy that had nothing to do with technology, it was soul destroying and horrible. As head of a technical department I found myself continually embroiled in matters that had nothing to do with what my department actually did, and trying to explain what my staff actually did in ways senior management could understand was a fruitless exercises—one may as well have tried to teach a dog calculus. In my opinion, for such a situation it would make sense for the management to apply a more hands-off approach with respect to managing the technical employees. If you don't understand what they are doing, employ great people that you trust and let them do their technical things in a rather hands-off way.
  - hilbert42 2y ago
    Trouble is tech services are needed by such organizations, in my case it was IT and electronics. It's when things go wrong as they sometimes do, and mainly when users screw up using the services—no matter how much has been plowed into training—that it comes unstuck. Management wants assurances that services will be more reliable but they don't have the interest or understanding to be helpful, this lack of understanding manifests as insufficient budgets and etc. So what does one do? Well aware of C.P. Snows' two cultures problem, I hire consultants who are at arm's length to (a) check my operation is working efficiently (and it passes AOK), and (b) to explain matters to management (it's more detailed than that but you get the gist). Did that help? Well, essentially no it didn't, if management isn't really interested in resolving matters and or takes precious little interest in what its technical departments and staff do then one is essentially stymied. One either puts up with matters or gets out. I opted for the latter.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - throwaway2037 2y ago
    > In my opinion, for such a situation it would make sense for the management to apply a more hands-off approach with respect to managing the technical employees. If you don't understand what they are doing, employ great people that you trust and let them do their technical things in a rather hands-off way. This never works. I work in a place with a bunch of very competent people (not perfect, but good), and there are still so many people trying to "dig the moat" -- own a project where they can do whatever stupid shit they want. They leave years later and senior managers are told about the mess they left behind. Can you imagine what happens where most people are average or less?
hfkssisownejid 2y ago
The author of this article seems like an asshole
- luizsantana 2y ago
  They sound bitter
  - specproc 2y ago
    Perhaps, but they can write.
    - m_fayer 2y ago
      Clever, self-involved, no inner-editor. I find myself concurring with their view despite a writing style that does nothing for the credibility of the author.
- p1nkpineapple 2y ago
  https://ludic.mataroa.blog/compliments/ https://ludic.mataroa.blog/compliments/ His posts show up occasionally on HN. I find his cynical/humorous style great for seeing things from a different point of view - It's a breath of fresh air.
  - squigz 2y ago
    "People think I'm an asshole... best not reflect on that, let's just embrace it and double down!"
- fred_is_fred 2y ago
  Yes 100% and it's not helping his job search.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
holliplex 2y ago
I understand the frustration. But if I were looking for a job, I simply would not publicly announce to the world that I am this much of a dick.
- freilanzer 2y ago
  I like the writing style quite a bit.
- shenene 2y ago
  This
- bananaboy 2y ago
  Yeah he sounds completely insufferable. If he came across like this in an interview with me I would be very put off.
  - TheOtherHobbes 2y ago
    On the one hand the idiocy and incompetence in these interviews is not unusual for corporate hiring of all kinds. So it's reasonable to be infuriated. But there's more than a hint of narcissism in the writing. Which is incredibly toxic to work with, because every interaction becomes less about solving problems and more about aggressive assertions of dominance and superiority. On the upside, if he's as smart as he wants to be, he'll be able to solve his problem.
    - Clubber 2y ago
      A few narcissists I've met in tech have potential but never get past first base because they are incapable of admitting they're wrong, and therefore incapable of improving. They are perpetually junior devs that are good at self promotion. I'm not saying the author is like that, but he might be.
      - Nevermark 2y ago
        They don’t really pump themselves. Their network is full of people they appreciate. They would like to work in a better context with such people. They are discouraged by the quagmire of the low quality cold interview swamp. I don’t see narcissistic flags here, and I have had significant experiences with that category of person. Unfortunately. The irreverent gallows humor seems to be throwing some people off. But that is often a creative person’s tactic for maintaining a light mood in casual (not professional) contexts, despite rough circumstances. (Narcissism isn’t being off putting, difficult, unpleasant, objectionable, etc. It is as important to not overapply that concept as it is to recognize it. It is usually not immediately obvious, as they are often image conscious and exude charm. Unless they have a secure power imbalance, or you are socially irrelevant to what they care about.)
ang_cire 2y ago
> The tea causes me to radiate an aura that makes the thought leaders I know slightly uneasy around me. I don't know them, but I love this person. Very Douglas Adams-esque writing style, too.
- n4r9 2y ago
  I'd be curious to know what tea they think is better, and what kind of tea they're drinking. When it comes to English breakfast tea, it's normally a blend of black tea leaf fannings from India, Sri Lanka, and Africa. Imo there's not that much objective difference in quality between brands like Yorkshire Tea, PG Tips, Twinings, Red/Gold Label, Tetleys etc... . A lot of it comes down to subjective taste. For example, there's a strain of British person whose pride and self-identity is somehow tied up in enjoying very long brews with just a dash of milk. These people are likely to prefer teas with very strong flavours in the blend, such as Assam. Then there are people who enjoy subtle flavours. They might prefer Twinings Everyday which includes leaves from Yunnan.
  - haiku2077 2y ago
    I've got some single-source tea in my fridge that's significantly better than the supermarket blend. It's different every season though. https://obubutea.com https://obubutea.com
    - n4r9 2y ago
      You keep the leaves in the fridge? Does it make a difference?
      - haiku2077 2y ago
        After you open the bag, it keeps them fresh for longer.
- throwaway346434 2y ago
  Douglas Adams wrote often about the absurdity of powerful groups vs the common man. The author of this post is no Arthur Dent.
DanielHB 2y ago
I don't know much about the market in Australia, but I imagine that this person is running into something I ran into myself. That tech jobs agglomerate in a few specific locations and the farther away you are from them the more clueless people are about tech (ie more clueless business people in charge and more faceless megacorps with drone-like employees). Usually any given country will have one big spot for tech and in some countries even there will be a bit crappy. My guess is that Melbourne is not a very good spot.
- solraph 2y ago
  > Usually any given country will have one big spot for tech... ...My guess is that Melbourne is not a very good spot. It's not an unreasonable assumption, but in this case it's incorrect. Sydney has more tech work, but only in proportion to its larger size. That said, Melbourne tech work is very heavily (but not exclusively) orientated around finance, insurance, real estate and so on which is not everyone's cup of tea.
  - defrost 2y ago
    Indeed. I've clocked ~40 years in Australian tech and managed to avoid all of those domains, web development, cubicle farms, and nearly (but not quite) office politics. Could be why I still have all my hair and good health.
    - cableshaft 2y ago
      > Could be why I still have all my hair and good health. If you just mean in regards to stress, then working tech at an insurance company is a pretty low-stress job from my experience. Finance can be pretty low-stress too in certain sectors. Like I've been working for a wealth management and investment analysis company, and haven't worked more than a 40 hour work week in years, with lots of flexibility during work to go to appointments or run errands, and while we have sprints, they're very malleable, and the real deadlines are more on a quarterly level, and they try to be conservative with their quarterly goals to make sure they hit them. Now if you meant as far as life fulfillment? Yeah I get that. But I at least have some other things outside of work I can pursue.
auct 2y ago
Someone, please, tell the dude that remote work exists.
- atemerev 2y ago
  Mediocre jobs are mediocre even when remote work is allowed. And Australia has their time zone problem, which is important if you plan to work for US companies.
- SomeoneFromCA 2y ago
  The best of them, most technical, are all taken by us, Eastern Europeans/ex-USSR.
melbourneIT 2y ago
Fellow Melbourne (though originally from Asia) IT professional here. I too have struggled with AU IT industry a lot since arriving here 10 years ago. AU is a service-driven economy and IT market reflects it i.e. most companies don’t cares much about inventing, creating or innovating and there’s little incentive to think outside the box in this domain. On the flip side, life is easy and as long as you’re not too aspirational or expect high level of technical aptitude from management or recruiters, adjusting is possible. I guess this may sound like a dream to some and a nightmare to others - it’s all about your perspective, objective and expectations and isn’t that different to the rest of the world (US and perhaps pockets of Asia excepted). I’ve been told it’s all about “playing the game” but have to admit that, just like the author, I find it to be a hard mental work. In addition, looking at my peers who seemingly don’t have these worries as they work in other industries, makes you question your career choices. If you’re hungry, restless and the IT industry culture status quo shock is too great to stomach, migrating to US (managed to work across both continents for a bit of perspective) is pretty much the only option :(
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
Havoc 2y ago
Businesses don’t employee people to achieve their self-actualisation
sumedh 2y ago
The tech industry in Australia is small and even smaller in Melbourne its very risky being so public about criticism and also posting that he hopes his side business will take off so that he can get out of the rat race.
flappyeagle 2y ago
Anyone work at atlassian? How’s it there?
CharlieDigital 2y ago
I've spent most of my career in startups (bootstrapped and VC-backed) and I find that it's much easier to find a good fit with a team in a startup. The interviews will generally be with the founding team for early stage startups, but even for a startup heading into series A, you'll still probably meet with the C-suite for culture fit. If you get into an interview, it's almost always high on engagement because the team is small and the mission doesn't lose fidelity through layers of management (why this role? why now? what problems are being solved for? what type of candidate is a best fit?)
udev4096 2y ago
The beauty of engineering cannot be found in a "corporate world". It's in the open source ecosystem, where the innovation happens
- surajrmal 2y ago
  Interestingly, its open source projects that are largely led by corporate entities which I find the most beautiful.
  - udev4096 2y ago
    It might be true to some extent. But there are quite a lot of projects, such as corejs, which gets tiny funding for the amount of significance it has on various large scale services
joshstrange 2y ago
And yet the author has not posted (I scrolled back to October I believe) in “Who wants to be hired” nor would I bet they’ve scanned through the “Who is hiring” thread. Maybe they post under a different name and I’m wrong but that seems like missed opportunity. For my own part I greatly prefer smaller companies and startups. I honestly don’t believe they are really that much more volatile than bigger companies (see layoffs) and I abhor the “process over progress” mentality at larger companies. That along with layers and layers of bureaucracy to get anything done. At a smaller company I have a direct impact and there is simply no room for people who aren’t competent. Side note: “Competent” is high praise in my book. Most people don’t meet that bar IMHO. I am not, nor am I looking for “10x” developers. I’m looking for people that care, can learn what they need to learn, can think critically, and can work well on a team with others. I have numerous other complaints with the blog post, not least of which being annoyed that employees at companies the author looked at didn’t have GitHub activity. Not everyone programs in their free time. I mean, I do but I know many extremely competent people who don’t. Judging a company by that seems silly. I got my current job through HN (in 2019) and I’m currently hiring others using HN and have managed to find a number people who are working their way through the interview process (side note: contact me if you are in the US and want to work with PHP/Quasar/Vue). It’s not easy work but it’s working and I’d bet it’s working better than using an incompetent conman, I’m sorry, I think the common term is “recruiter” or something like LinkedIn/Indeed. Yes, trying to get a job without using your network is more difficult but it not impossible either. That said, I have no clue what it’s like in Melbourne, maybe it’s different there. I’ll end with this: it’s just silly to drink shitty tea just so you can complain about it.
sevagh 2y ago
>Become an electrician like a friend that just quit engineering? Carpentry? Automobile repair? Write a fantasy novel? Start a cult? Back to privately tutoring statistics? I think your coworkers or customers as an electrician, carpenter, or car mechanic wouldn't be as polite as your IT colleagues at taking your bullshit.
lkdfjlkdfjlg 2y ago
> They don't even have the decency to be offended by my rudeness and reply with "Oh, we're just looking for someone to click buttons." > The recruiter calls me the next day to inform me that my question prompted them to close the role, and re-open a new one at the junior level because they only needed a ClickOps monkey. They actually learned? Thats not too bad. Sure, theyre ignorant about many other things, but learning is important. That said, this guy sounds really full of himself. I suspect it must transpire. > (though the work seemed like more of the "present yourself as a cog in some vast, soulless machinery" stuff I already get So this guy is a cog and wants "leadership" roles. Cant get them, blames other peoples social skills. Cool story bro.
hellonull 2y ago
> None of their engineering staff have anything visible on their GitHub accounts - not even a project that they got two lines into and then threw away, which I honestly accept as a sign of baseline competence these days As much as I want to contribute to FOSS I have kids to take care of, and want to parent. While I’m not star dev, I am certainly competent.
- gambiting 2y ago
  I've been a C++ dev for more than a decade and every single project I've ever worked on has been confidential and closed source, there is nothing for me to put on GitHub, other than personal stuff but then why would I ever do that? My hobby projects don't reflect my professional standards for coding, if they did they would no longer be hobby projects :P
  - add-sub-mul-div 2y ago
    Same with me, I have active projects on github but the repos are private and bespoke, very specific to my environment. It's not performative activity to make my profile look good, I actually use the stuff.
    - mariusor 2y ago
      And are you sure your use cases don't match others', or are you not willing to share your work for free with them? Why would it be performative to make it public?
      - Nevermark 2y ago
        Their point is they don’t think their project is suitable to be public, so making it so would be performative.
        mariusor 2y ago
        I got that, but my question was "why?" on both accounts.
trimethylpurine 2y ago
It sounds like you interview very well. For public job posts 9 months is reasonable to find the right (or closest to that) job. 5 interviews sounds like you're not really looking. I'm not sure if that's how many you had. But, 45 interviews sounds more reasonable for getting a good selection of jobs to choose from. The largest fish in the lake isn't likely to be the first one you catch on your first visit. Though, sometimes luck hands you a short journey. >None of their engineering staff have anything visible on their GitHub accounts Maybe they aren't seeking attention? Do yourself a favor; if you have some GitHub profile photo that looks like a dating site, take it down. No one cares and most people find that annoying. That's especially true at smaller companies where leadership is easier to achieve, as is higher pay. I hope you find the right gig. Wish you the best of luck.
- xandrius 2y ago
  Ah, 45 interviews. What a beautiful world you live in.
  - trimethylpurine 2y ago
    If you are spending more than 45 interviews to find a job, you may need to take some courses and practice with friends. Interviewing is an acquired skill.
    - xandrius 2y ago
      My point was that even getting 1 interview can take ages these days.
      - trimethylpurine 2y ago
        Yeah, it's a lot of work, I agree. You have to spend 2-3 hours a day filling out applications. More if you can muster the patience for it. But if you commit to 5 applications per day (admittedly that's a heavy workload) that's 150 applications a month. You should be able to get at least 5 offers to interview out of that. And of those 1/10 will offer you a job. Which means you will be picking from 4 job offers. That's all a bunch of bullshit numbers but you get the idea. It's a lot more work to get a good job than most people think. I'm trying to paint a clear picture. I have an enjoyable job. Enviable even. When I hear people bitch about 5 interviews with no good offers, I feel bad for them. The expectation needs to be that this is the case. The solution is to adjust expectations to match reality. If you're trying to say it's hard to get a job, I agree. I'm going further. It's way harder than you think. But it's not impossible. I did it. Most people did it. And we all complained the whole way too.
withinboredom 2y ago
This was some of the funniest shit I've read in a long time. 100% relate to the rampant cargo cult culture: "Oh, nice, I see you abstracted the clock but not using a mock in the tests, why did you abstract it?" ... "I read an article saying it should be..." :sigh: I recommend just walking into places that look interesting to work at and literally giving them your resume in person. Granted, I haven't done that since pre-covid, but it used to work well. I'd sometimes walk in and then just turn around (could tell immediately it wasn't a place I wanted to work). Sometimes, I'd get invited to lunch and get a job offer before the day was over. Granted, that was pre-covid, so in the days of hybrid/remote work, this probably doesn't work as well. Anyway, finding a job is shit. This I totally agree with.
fy20 2y ago
Oh wow, this resonates so badly with me. This guy must be my Malay / Aussie doppelganger. My company has the same bullshit, but we have terrible coffee instead of terrible tea. I used to buy my own on the way to the office, but now I've become so cynical I just don't care anymore. When I joined just after COVID we were working from the office 5 days a week. I'd been working remotely for nearly a decade so thought it would be a welcome change, but oh man, I completely forgot about all the office BS you need to deal with. Eventually they realised that policy made hiring people hard, as now everyone expects to WFH, so they now allow is to work from home 1 day a week. Over Christmas and New Year they were so grateful for all our hard work, that they allowed us to work from home for 2 days a week. That was literally all we got for Christmas. For the past few months I've been looking for a more chilled out job. I have a family now, and have gone past the point of seeing any purpose or fulfilment in my work. I just want to clock in, do my 8 hours, then leave at the end of the day and switch to family mode. The biggest issue for me has been recruiters ghosting me. I have an interview that goes well then at the end I hear "I'll be in touch by the end of play tomorrow" and don't hear anything back. Or recruiters message me on LinkedIn, I reply saying "yes I'm willing to torture myself with your interview process. Can you call me tomorrow afternoon?" and then I don't hear anything back. Like OP most of the jobs I've had are through my network, or from recruiters reaching out to me during times when anyone with a heartbeat could get a senior React position. Sometimes I wonder, am I just a bad engineer? Am I just terrible at selling myself? The best job I ever had was also with a team that had funny shaped keyboards - it's how I learned Vim. We would stay after work to play video games, and go out for drinks as a team once or twice a week. We worked hard, but it didn't feel like work. I'd love to find that again, but nothing has even come close. I don't know if it's just that I was young or naive and "the grass is always greener" when looking back, or that I have now been infected with the cyninism that capitalism breeds. (And for anyone wondering, I - and I assume OP is the same - do not talk like this to others, and especially not in an interview. My cynicism stays in my head)
fred_is_fred 2y ago
Frankly this guy sounds exhausting and I can't help but think that his snarky and superior attitude is causing him problems in his job search. Also - who does this? > so I call their front desk to get ahold of the person that's listed on the job application, and then it all gets weird.
throwaway2037 2y ago
The mistake that all of the "genius" AI/ML/data wranglers make: Their skills are not worth 200K+ USD/year outside of very few companies with insanely high profit margins, namely top tier investment banks, FAANG, and some hedge funds. If this writer is so good, then go to one of those places and get a job. You will get what you think you are worth. Alternatively, consider Singapore or Hongkong to access some of the aforementioned companies, if there are not enough in Sydney. And this line was too much for me: <<Leave the technology space>> Oh yeah, and do what? Oh, something that pays much less, or doesn't come with a cushy office job. Since you have PR in Australia, how about driving heavy equipment in a remote mine in Western Aus? I hear that they make a minimum of 100K AUD per year, but your life is hell -- fly in and fly out weekly. Suddenly, your cushy office job working for the CEO's son making 100K AUD doesn't sound so bad. In terms of pure prose, this line is a gem: > For the inevitable person that gets upset that I haven't settled for less, I invite them to try painting themselves brown and working in Malaysia to simulate my early career. I have seen it many times. It is grossly unfair in East and South East Asia.

108 points by ludicity 2y ago

"It is a cold Anzac day in Melbourne, and I am brooding." I'm in Sydney, and Lest We Forget. "It has become exceedingly clear to me that the average company is not a suitable environment for someone that cares about the craft of programming." I'm not in a position to do this topic justice as it's a too big a subject to cover in a post such as this. Nevertheless, l'd extend that statement to include essentially any craft or expertise. Companies have profit as their primary objective and this rarely fits well with the specifics of one's craft or expertise. The worst case comes when the stated objectives of the company or organization (what it does to make money) are very different to those of the employee's skills. For instance, the employee is employed in some technical area of a company that has nothing to do with technology such as banking, finance, the arts and various government bureaucracies. My worst job was working for a government bureaucracy that had nothing to do with technology, it was soul destroying and horrible. As head of a technical department I found myself continually embroiled in matters that had nothing to do with what my department actually did, and trying to explain what my staff actually did in ways senior management could understand was a fruitless exercises—one may as well have tried to teach a dog calculus. What was so frustrating was that I was in a secure position and that the only escape meant I would have to ditch tenure and security, which is eventually what I did.

aleph_minus_one 2y ago
> The worst case comes when the stated objectives of the company or organization (what it does to make money) are very different to those of the employee's skills. For instance, the employee is employed in some technical area of a company that has nothing to do with technology such as banking, finance, the arts and various government bureaucracies. > My worst job was working for a government bureaucracy that had nothing to do with technology, it was soul destroying and horrible. As head of a technical department I found myself continually embroiled in matters that had nothing to do with what my department actually did, and trying to explain what my staff actually did in ways senior management could understand was a fruitless exercises—one may as well have tried to teach a dog calculus. In my opinion, for such a situation it would make sense for the management to apply a more hands-off approach with respect to managing the technical employees. If you don't understand what they are doing, employ great people that you trust and let them do their technical things in a rather hands-off way.
- hilbert42 2y ago
  Trouble is tech services are needed by such organizations, in my case it was IT and electronics. It's when things go wrong as they sometimes do, and mainly when users screw up using the services—no matter how much has been plowed into training—that it comes unstuck. Management wants assurances that services will be more reliable but they don't have the interest or understanding to be helpful, this lack of understanding manifests as insufficient budgets and etc. So what does one do? Well aware of C.P. Snows' two cultures problem, I hire consultants who are at arm's length to (a) check my operation is working efficiently (and it passes AOK), and (b) to explain matters to management (it's more detailed than that but you get the gist). Did that help? Well, essentially no it didn't, if management isn't really interested in resolving matters and or takes precious little interest in what its technical departments and staff do then one is essentially stymied. One either puts up with matters or gets out. I opted for the latter.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- throwaway2037 2y ago
  > In my opinion, for such a situation it would make sense for the management to apply a more hands-off approach with respect to managing the technical employees. If you don't understand what they are doing, employ great people that you trust and let them do their technical things in a rather hands-off way. This never works. I work in a place with a bunch of very competent people (not perfect, but good), and there are still so many people trying to "dig the moat" -- own a project where they can do whatever stupid shit they want. They leave years later and senior managers are told about the mess they left behind. Can you imagine what happens where most people are average or less?

hfkssisownejid 2y ago

The author of this article seems like an asshole

luizsantana 2y ago
They sound bitter
- specproc 2y ago
  Perhaps, but they can write.
  - m_fayer 2y ago
    Clever, self-involved, no inner-editor. I find myself concurring with their view despite a writing style that does nothing for the credibility of the author.
p1nkpineapple 2y ago
https://ludic.mataroa.blog/compliments/ https://ludic.mataroa.blog/compliments/ His posts show up occasionally on HN. I find his cynical/humorous style great for seeing things from a different point of view - It's a breath of fresh air.
- squigz 2y ago
  "People think I'm an asshole... best not reflect on that, let's just embrace it and double down!"
fred_is_fred 2y ago
Yes 100% and it's not helping his job search.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

holliplex 2y ago

I understand the frustration. But if I were looking for a job, I simply would not publicly announce to the world that I am this much of a dick.

freilanzer 2y ago
I like the writing style quite a bit.
shenene 2y ago
This
bananaboy 2y ago
Yeah he sounds completely insufferable. If he came across like this in an interview with me I would be very put off.
- TheOtherHobbes 2y ago
  On the one hand the idiocy and incompetence in these interviews is not unusual for corporate hiring of all kinds. So it's reasonable to be infuriated. But there's more than a hint of narcissism in the writing. Which is incredibly toxic to work with, because every interaction becomes less about solving problems and more about aggressive assertions of dominance and superiority. On the upside, if he's as smart as he wants to be, he'll be able to solve his problem.
  - Clubber 2y ago
    A few narcissists I've met in tech have potential but never get past first base because they are incapable of admitting they're wrong, and therefore incapable of improving. They are perpetually junior devs that are good at self promotion. I'm not saying the author is like that, but he might be.
    - Nevermark 2y ago
      They don’t really pump themselves. Their network is full of people they appreciate. They would like to work in a better context with such people. They are discouraged by the quagmire of the low quality cold interview swamp. I don’t see narcissistic flags here, and I have had significant experiences with that category of person. Unfortunately. The irreverent gallows humor seems to be throwing some people off. But that is often a creative person’s tactic for maintaining a light mood in casual (not professional) contexts, despite rough circumstances. (Narcissism isn’t being off putting, difficult, unpleasant, objectionable, etc. It is as important to not overapply that concept as it is to recognize it. It is usually not immediately obvious, as they are often image conscious and exude charm. Unless they have a secure power imbalance, or you are socially irrelevant to what they care about.)

ang_cire 2y ago

> The tea causes me to radiate an aura that makes the thought leaders I know slightly uneasy around me. I don't know them, but I love this person. Very Douglas Adams-esque writing style, too.

n4r9 2y ago
I'd be curious to know what tea they think is better, and what kind of tea they're drinking. When it comes to English breakfast tea, it's normally a blend of black tea leaf fannings from India, Sri Lanka, and Africa. Imo there's not that much objective difference in quality between brands like Yorkshire Tea, PG Tips, Twinings, Red/Gold Label, Tetleys etc... . A lot of it comes down to subjective taste. For example, there's a strain of British person whose pride and self-identity is somehow tied up in enjoying very long brews with just a dash of milk. These people are likely to prefer teas with very strong flavours in the blend, such as Assam. Then there are people who enjoy subtle flavours. They might prefer Twinings Everyday which includes leaves from Yunnan.
- haiku2077 2y ago
  I've got some single-source tea in my fridge that's significantly better than the supermarket blend. It's different every season though. https://obubutea.com https://obubutea.com
  - n4r9 2y ago
    You keep the leaves in the fridge? Does it make a difference?
    - haiku2077 2y ago
      After you open the bag, it keeps them fresh for longer.
throwaway346434 2y ago
Douglas Adams wrote often about the absurdity of powerful groups vs the common man. The author of this post is no Arthur Dent.

DanielHB 2y ago

I don't know much about the market in Australia, but I imagine that this person is running into something I ran into myself. That tech jobs agglomerate in a few specific locations and the farther away you are from them the more clueless people are about tech (ie more clueless business people in charge and more faceless megacorps with drone-like employees). Usually any given country will have one big spot for tech and in some countries even there will be a bit crappy. My guess is that Melbourne is not a very good spot.

solraph 2y ago
> Usually any given country will have one big spot for tech... ...My guess is that Melbourne is not a very good spot. It's not an unreasonable assumption, but in this case it's incorrect. Sydney has more tech work, but only in proportion to its larger size. That said, Melbourne tech work is very heavily (but not exclusively) orientated around finance, insurance, real estate and so on which is not everyone's cup of tea.
- defrost 2y ago
  Indeed. I've clocked ~40 years in Australian tech and managed to avoid all of those domains, web development, cubicle farms, and nearly (but not quite) office politics. Could be why I still have all my hair and good health.
  - cableshaft 2y ago
    > Could be why I still have all my hair and good health. If you just mean in regards to stress, then working tech at an insurance company is a pretty low-stress job from my experience. Finance can be pretty low-stress too in certain sectors. Like I've been working for a wealth management and investment analysis company, and haven't worked more than a 40 hour work week in years, with lots of flexibility during work to go to appointments or run errands, and while we have sprints, they're very malleable, and the real deadlines are more on a quarterly level, and they try to be conservative with their quarterly goals to make sure they hit them. Now if you meant as far as life fulfillment? Yeah I get that. But I at least have some other things outside of work I can pursue.

auct 2y ago

Someone, please, tell the dude that remote work exists.

atemerev 2y ago
Mediocre jobs are mediocre even when remote work is allowed. And Australia has their time zone problem, which is important if you plan to work for US companies.
SomeoneFromCA 2y ago
The best of them, most technical, are all taken by us, Eastern Europeans/ex-USSR.

melbourneIT 2y ago

Fellow Melbourne (though originally from Asia) IT professional here. I too have struggled with AU IT industry a lot since arriving here 10 years ago. AU is a service-driven economy and IT market reflects it i.e. most companies don’t cares much about inventing, creating or innovating and there’s little incentive to think outside the box in this domain. On the flip side, life is easy and as long as you’re not too aspirational or expect high level of technical aptitude from management or recruiters, adjusting is possible. I guess this may sound like a dream to some and a nightmare to others - it’s all about your perspective, objective and expectations and isn’t that different to the rest of the world (US and perhaps pockets of Asia excepted). I’ve been told it’s all about “playing the game” but have to admit that, just like the author, I find it to be a hard mental work. In addition, looking at my peers who seemingly don’t have these worries as they work in other industries, makes you question your career choices. If you’re hungry, restless and the IT industry culture status quo shock is too great to stomach, migrating to US (managed to work across both continents for a bit of perspective) is pretty much the only option :(

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

Havoc 2y ago

Businesses don’t employee people to achieve their self-actualisation

sumedh 2y ago

The tech industry in Australia is small and even smaller in Melbourne its very risky being so public about criticism and also posting that he hopes his side business will take off so that he can get out of the rat race.

flappyeagle 2y ago

Anyone work at atlassian? How’s it there?

CharlieDigital 2y ago

I've spent most of my career in startups (bootstrapped and VC-backed) and I find that it's much easier to find a good fit with a team in a startup. The interviews will generally be with the founding team for early stage startups, but even for a startup heading into series A, you'll still probably meet with the C-suite for culture fit. If you get into an interview, it's almost always high on engagement because the team is small and the mission doesn't lose fidelity through layers of management (why this role? why now? what problems are being solved for? what type of candidate is a best fit?)

udev4096 2y ago

The beauty of engineering cannot be found in a "corporate world". It's in the open source ecosystem, where the innovation happens

surajrmal 2y ago
Interestingly, its open source projects that are largely led by corporate entities which I find the most beautiful.
- udev4096 2y ago
  It might be true to some extent. But there are quite a lot of projects, such as corejs, which gets tiny funding for the amount of significance it has on various large scale services

joshstrange 2y ago

And yet the author has not posted (I scrolled back to October I believe) in “Who wants to be hired” nor would I bet they’ve scanned through the “Who is hiring” thread. Maybe they post under a different name and I’m wrong but that seems like missed opportunity. For my own part I greatly prefer smaller companies and startups. I honestly don’t believe they are really that much more volatile than bigger companies (see layoffs) and I abhor the “process over progress” mentality at larger companies. That along with layers and layers of bureaucracy to get anything done. At a smaller company I have a direct impact and there is simply no room for people who aren’t competent. Side note: “Competent” is high praise in my book. Most people don’t meet that bar IMHO. I am not, nor am I looking for “10x” developers. I’m looking for people that care, can learn what they need to learn, can think critically, and can work well on a team with others. I have numerous other complaints with the blog post, not least of which being annoyed that employees at companies the author looked at didn’t have GitHub activity. Not everyone programs in their free time. I mean, I do but I know many extremely competent people who don’t. Judging a company by that seems silly. I got my current job through HN (in 2019) and I’m currently hiring others using HN and have managed to find a number people who are working their way through the interview process (side note: contact me if you are in the US and want to work with PHP/Quasar/Vue). It’s not easy work but it’s working and I’d bet it’s working better than using an incompetent conman, I’m sorry, I think the common term is “recruiter” or something like LinkedIn/Indeed. Yes, trying to get a job without using your network is more difficult but it not impossible either. That said, I have no clue what it’s like in Melbourne, maybe it’s different there. I’ll end with this: it’s just silly to drink shitty tea just so you can complain about it.

sevagh 2y ago

>Become an electrician like a friend that just quit engineering? Carpentry? Automobile repair? Write a fantasy novel? Start a cult? Back to privately tutoring statistics? I think your coworkers or customers as an electrician, carpenter, or car mechanic wouldn't be as polite as your IT colleagues at taking your bullshit.

lkdfjlkdfjlg 2y ago

> They don't even have the decency to be offended by my rudeness and reply with "Oh, we're just looking for someone to click buttons." > The recruiter calls me the next day to inform me that my question prompted them to close the role, and re-open a new one at the junior level because they only needed a ClickOps monkey. They actually learned? Thats not too bad. Sure, theyre ignorant about many other things, but learning is important. That said, this guy sounds really full of himself. I suspect it must transpire. > (though the work seemed like more of the "present yourself as a cog in some vast, soulless machinery" stuff I already get So this guy is a cog and wants "leadership" roles. Cant get them, blames other peoples social skills. Cool story bro.

hellonull 2y ago

> None of their engineering staff have anything visible on their GitHub accounts - not even a project that they got two lines into and then threw away, which I honestly accept as a sign of baseline competence these days As much as I want to contribute to FOSS I have kids to take care of, and want to parent. While I’m not star dev, I am certainly competent.

gambiting 2y ago
I've been a C++ dev for more than a decade and every single project I've ever worked on has been confidential and closed source, there is nothing for me to put on GitHub, other than personal stuff but then why would I ever do that? My hobby projects don't reflect my professional standards for coding, if they did they would no longer be hobby projects :P
- add-sub-mul-div 2y ago
  Same with me, I have active projects on github but the repos are private and bespoke, very specific to my environment. It's not performative activity to make my profile look good, I actually use the stuff.
  - mariusor 2y ago
    And are you sure your use cases don't match others', or are you not willing to share your work for free with them? Why would it be performative to make it public?
    - Nevermark 2y ago
      Their point is they don’t think their project is suitable to be public, so making it so would be performative.
      - mariusor 2y ago
        I got that, but my question was "why?" on both accounts.

trimethylpurine 2y ago

It sounds like you interview very well. For public job posts 9 months is reasonable to find the right (or closest to that) job. 5 interviews sounds like you're not really looking. I'm not sure if that's how many you had. But, 45 interviews sounds more reasonable for getting a good selection of jobs to choose from. The largest fish in the lake isn't likely to be the first one you catch on your first visit. Though, sometimes luck hands you a short journey. >None of their engineering staff have anything visible on their GitHub accounts Maybe they aren't seeking attention? Do yourself a favor; if you have some GitHub profile photo that looks like a dating site, take it down. No one cares and most people find that annoying. That's especially true at smaller companies where leadership is easier to achieve, as is higher pay. I hope you find the right gig. Wish you the best of luck.

xandrius 2y ago
Ah, 45 interviews. What a beautiful world you live in.
- trimethylpurine 2y ago
  If you are spending more than 45 interviews to find a job, you may need to take some courses and practice with friends. Interviewing is an acquired skill.
  - xandrius 2y ago
    My point was that even getting 1 interview can take ages these days.
    - trimethylpurine 2y ago
      Yeah, it's a lot of work, I agree. You have to spend 2-3 hours a day filling out applications. More if you can muster the patience for it. But if you commit to 5 applications per day (admittedly that's a heavy workload) that's 150 applications a month. You should be able to get at least 5 offers to interview out of that. And of those 1/10 will offer you a job. Which means you will be picking from 4 job offers. That's all a bunch of bullshit numbers but you get the idea. It's a lot more work to get a good job than most people think. I'm trying to paint a clear picture. I have an enjoyable job. Enviable even. When I hear people bitch about 5 interviews with no good offers, I feel bad for them. The expectation needs to be that this is the case. The solution is to adjust expectations to match reality. If you're trying to say it's hard to get a job, I agree. I'm going further. It's way harder than you think. But it's not impossible. I did it. Most people did it. And we all complained the whole way too.

withinboredom 2y ago

This was some of the funniest shit I've read in a long time. 100% relate to the rampant cargo cult culture: "Oh, nice, I see you abstracted the clock but not using a mock in the tests, why did you abstract it?" ... "I read an article saying it should be..." :sigh: I recommend just walking into places that look interesting to work at and literally giving them your resume in person. Granted, I haven't done that since pre-covid, but it used to work well. I'd sometimes walk in and then just turn around (could tell immediately it wasn't a place I wanted to work). Sometimes, I'd get invited to lunch and get a job offer before the day was over. Granted, that was pre-covid, so in the days of hybrid/remote work, this probably doesn't work as well. Anyway, finding a job is shit. This I totally agree with.

fy20 2y ago

Oh wow, this resonates so badly with me. This guy must be my Malay / Aussie doppelganger. My company has the same bullshit, but we have terrible coffee instead of terrible tea. I used to buy my own on the way to the office, but now I've become so cynical I just don't care anymore. When I joined just after COVID we were working from the office 5 days a week. I'd been working remotely for nearly a decade so thought it would be a welcome change, but oh man, I completely forgot about all the office BS you need to deal with. Eventually they realised that policy made hiring people hard, as now everyone expects to WFH, so they now allow is to work from home 1 day a week. Over Christmas and New Year they were so grateful for all our hard work, that they allowed us to work from home for 2 days a week. That was literally all we got for Christmas. For the past few months I've been looking for a more chilled out job. I have a family now, and have gone past the point of seeing any purpose or fulfilment in my work. I just want to clock in, do my 8 hours, then leave at the end of the day and switch to family mode. The biggest issue for me has been recruiters ghosting me. I have an interview that goes well then at the end I hear "I'll be in touch by the end of play tomorrow" and don't hear anything back. Or recruiters message me on LinkedIn, I reply saying "yes I'm willing to torture myself with your interview process. Can you call me tomorrow afternoon?" and then I don't hear anything back. Like OP most of the jobs I've had are through my network, or from recruiters reaching out to me during times when anyone with a heartbeat could get a senior React position. Sometimes I wonder, am I just a bad engineer? Am I just terrible at selling myself? The best job I ever had was also with a team that had funny shaped keyboards - it's how I learned Vim. We would stay after work to play video games, and go out for drinks as a team once or twice a week. We worked hard, but it didn't feel like work. I'd love to find that again, but nothing has even come close. I don't know if it's just that I was young or naive and "the grass is always greener" when looking back, or that I have now been infected with the cyninism that capitalism breeds. (And for anyone wondering, I - and I assume OP is the same - do not talk like this to others, and especially not in an interview. My cynicism stays in my head)

fred_is_fred 2y ago

Frankly this guy sounds exhausting and I can't help but think that his snarky and superior attitude is causing him problems in his job search. Also - who does this? > so I call their front desk to get ahold of the person that's listed on the job application, and then it all gets weird.

throwaway2037 2y ago

The mistake that all of the "genius" AI/ML/data wranglers make: Their skills are not worth 200K+ USD/year outside of very few companies with insanely high profit margins, namely top tier investment banks, FAANG, and some hedge funds. If this writer is so good, then go to one of those places and get a job. You will get what you think you are worth. Alternatively, consider Singapore or Hongkong to access some of the aforementioned companies, if there are not enough in Sydney. And this line was too much for me: <<Leave the technology space>> Oh yeah, and do what? Oh, something that pays much less, or doesn't come with a cushy office job. Since you have PR in Australia, how about driving heavy equipment in a remote mine in Western Aus? I hear that they make a minimum of 100K AUD per year, but your life is hell -- fly in and fly out weekly. Suddenly, your cushy office job working for the CEO's son making 100K AUD doesn't sound so bad. In terms of pure prose, this line is a gem: > For the inevitable person that gets upset that I haven't settled for less, I invite them to try painting themselves brown and working in Malaysia to simulate my early career. I have seen it many times. It is grossly unfair in East and South East Asia.