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The way I see this is that democracy is extremely susceptible to tools that can change public opinion en masse. This of course applies to Western social media a

The way I see this is that democracy is extremely susceptible to tools that can change public opinion en masse. This of course applies to Western social media as much as TikTok, and I'd love to see regulation around all social media algorithms to ensure they're unbiased. I see this as a good start to counter a real threat, which is China's ability to influence US elections through TikTok.

hnthrowaway0328 2y ago
Overall we would want to give good education to children but sadly many parents resort to electronics quite early. There really should be a law to ban cell phones and pad for children less than 5.
- r14c 2y ago
  Improving the economics would help too. Raising a kid when both parents probably have to work presents challenges that just don't exist if most careers could support a family on a single income.
mjfl 2y ago
This is the same logic as would be used in banning the translation of the bible or the printing press. For any sufficiently concerned state, 'unbiased' means 'agrees with me'. For example, it may be seen in the USA to be 'unbiased' to be completely uncritical of Israel (anti-Zionism is anti-semitism according the US congress bill H.Res.894). However, this is not the case anywhere else in the world, including Israel (which criticizes itself sometimes), in fact it would seem quite insane.
roncesvalles 2y ago
If this were true, TikTok wouldn't have ended up in a ban.
- tptacek 2y ago
  It's not being banned.
  - ocdtrekkie 2y ago
    China has already indicated that because the sale would require a "technology export" of the algorithm, it would need their approval. And also that they would not approve it. So if China has already made it clear it considers a TikTok sale illegal, this is a ban. That being said, you don't get Nancy Pelosi and Marjorie Taylor Greene on the same side unless there is some serious fire behind all of the smoke. My guess is everyone who has seen the classified info agrees this ban is too critical to even play games with it.
    - garbagewoman 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
    - onthecanposting 2y ago
      Microsoft will dust off it's previous merger plan from the last time this political football was punted and fill superfluousmanagement and "trust and safety" positions with old national security alumni. The surveillance will continue.
    - EarthMephit 2y ago
      There's many companies that have reproduced the tictok algorithm. Surely if it was sold, the multibillion dollar company would have no issue with that aspect.
      - ALittleLight 2y ago
        What's an example of a company that reproduced the TikTok algorithm?
- LeroyRaz 2y ago
  No. Your statement does not follow. TikTok can be undermining the US (and potentially be a growing problem) without it being currently capable of preventing itself being banned. By your logic, nobody should go to hospital when sick, as if they can go to hospital then they must not be sick.
_r4nc 2y ago
> I'd love to see regulation around all social media algorithms to ensure they're unbiased. The bias is a feature. They just don't like the fact that they can't control the bias on TikTok so it spews Chinese propaganda instead of Western propaganda.
- troq13 2y ago
  Does it spew Chinese propaganda though? Have you even used TikTok?
cherioo 2y ago
It is not just democracy. All governance systems are susceptible to mass communication tools that can change public opinion, be it books, radio, tv, news organizations, or tiktok. It is why many non democratic countries do not have freedom of press, and a highly censored internet. This is a main contributor to Arab Spring. It is just sad that even US is susceptible to this.
- TaylorAlexander 2y ago
  Well mass manipulation of the people is how the USA functions. This is what Noam Chomsky and Edward Herman wrote about extensively in their book Manufacturing Consent from 1988. So it is no wonder it works when other people do it too. I agree though, it is sad, or frustrating, upsetting, infuriating, that the USA works like that. https://chomsky.info/consent01/ https://chomsky.info/consent01/
- fallingfrog 2y ago
  Susceptible? 90% of our public discourse is manufactured, and this whole TikTok thing is a prime example.
- TheVespasian 2y ago
  And indeed this gets at the falsity of democracy as a concept itself. In a certain sense it is more duplicitous than dictatorship
symlinkk 2y ago
You’re saying you don’t believe in freedom of speech.
- eBombzor 2y ago
  You are free to post whatever you want on a different platform. Banning TikTok and its algorithm has nothing to do with free speech. It's funny this always gets brought up, like what is TikTok allowing you to say that you can't say on FB, YT, etc?
  - spiderice 2y ago
    "The government isn't allowed to ban speech, but they can ban the tools used to speak". Pretty scary argument.
    - intrasight 2y ago
      Not really
    - asadotzler 2y ago
      Not a problem as long as there are other tools to speak. You have no right to YouTube or Facebook because neither are necessary for your free speech. This isn't complicated.
TaylorAlexander 2y ago
Regulation to ensure media is unbiased sounds on the face of it impossible. Anything that looks "unbiased" simply shares the same biases as you.
- YZF 2y ago
  Exactly right. What is "unbiased" or "neutral". That said I think some regulatory control is needed. There needs to be some sort of accountability e.g. for intentional propagation of fake news or censorship or defamation. This is no different than requirements for ethical behavior in other industries. Just like we regulate public companies in general we should be able to impose some requirements on any business that distributes media. Free speech for individuals but if you are a business or a media "provider" you need to meet a somewhat higher bar? I think we used to rely on journalistic standards or self regulation but with "new" media (and maybe even with old media) this seems to be not working that well any more. There's a fine line there for sure but seems like whether China owns some social media or someone with US citizenship we still want to have guards against harms this can cause. The amount of power these companies wield is scary.

hnthrowaway0328 2y ago

Overall we would want to give good education to children but sadly many parents resort to electronics quite early. There really should be a law to ban cell phones and pad for children less than 5.

r14c 2y ago
Improving the economics would help too. Raising a kid when both parents probably have to work presents challenges that just don't exist if most careers could support a family on a single income.

mjfl 2y ago

This is the same logic as would be used in banning the translation of the bible or the printing press. For any sufficiently concerned state, 'unbiased' means 'agrees with me'. For example, it may be seen in the USA to be 'unbiased' to be completely uncritical of Israel (anti-Zionism is anti-semitism according the US congress bill H.Res.894). However, this is not the case anywhere else in the world, including Israel (which criticizes itself sometimes), in fact it would seem quite insane.

roncesvalles 2y ago

If this were true, TikTok wouldn't have ended up in a ban.

tptacek 2y ago
It's not being banned.
- ocdtrekkie 2y ago
  China has already indicated that because the sale would require a "technology export" of the algorithm, it would need their approval. And also that they would not approve it. So if China has already made it clear it considers a TikTok sale illegal, this is a ban. That being said, you don't get Nancy Pelosi and Marjorie Taylor Greene on the same side unless there is some serious fire behind all of the smoke. My guess is everyone who has seen the classified info agrees this ban is too critical to even play games with it.
  - garbagewoman 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - onthecanposting 2y ago
    Microsoft will dust off it's previous merger plan from the last time this political football was punted and fill superfluousmanagement and "trust and safety" positions with old national security alumni. The surveillance will continue.
  - EarthMephit 2y ago
    There's many companies that have reproduced the tictok algorithm. Surely if it was sold, the multibillion dollar company would have no issue with that aspect.
    - ALittleLight 2y ago
      What's an example of a company that reproduced the TikTok algorithm?
LeroyRaz 2y ago
No. Your statement does not follow. TikTok can be undermining the US (and potentially be a growing problem) without it being currently capable of preventing itself being banned. By your logic, nobody should go to hospital when sick, as if they can go to hospital then they must not be sick.

_r4nc 2y ago

> I'd love to see regulation around all social media algorithms to ensure they're unbiased. The bias is a feature. They just don't like the fact that they can't control the bias on TikTok so it spews Chinese propaganda instead of Western propaganda.

troq13 2y ago
Does it spew Chinese propaganda though? Have you even used TikTok?

cherioo 2y ago

It is not just democracy. All governance systems are susceptible to mass communication tools that can change public opinion, be it books, radio, tv, news organizations, or tiktok. It is why many non democratic countries do not have freedom of press, and a highly censored internet. This is a main contributor to Arab Spring. It is just sad that even US is susceptible to this.

TaylorAlexander 2y ago
Well mass manipulation of the people is how the USA functions. This is what Noam Chomsky and Edward Herman wrote about extensively in their book Manufacturing Consent from 1988. So it is no wonder it works when other people do it too. I agree though, it is sad, or frustrating, upsetting, infuriating, that the USA works like that. https://chomsky.info/consent01/ https://chomsky.info/consent01/
fallingfrog 2y ago
Susceptible? 90% of our public discourse is manufactured, and this whole TikTok thing is a prime example.
TheVespasian 2y ago
And indeed this gets at the falsity of democracy as a concept itself. In a certain sense it is more duplicitous than dictatorship

symlinkk 2y ago

You’re saying you don’t believe in freedom of speech.

eBombzor 2y ago
You are free to post whatever you want on a different platform. Banning TikTok and its algorithm has nothing to do with free speech. It's funny this always gets brought up, like what is TikTok allowing you to say that you can't say on FB, YT, etc?
- spiderice 2y ago
  "The government isn't allowed to ban speech, but they can ban the tools used to speak". Pretty scary argument.
  - intrasight 2y ago
    Not really
  - asadotzler 2y ago
    Not a problem as long as there are other tools to speak. You have no right to YouTube or Facebook because neither are necessary for your free speech. This isn't complicated.

TaylorAlexander 2y ago

Regulation to ensure media is unbiased sounds on the face of it impossible. Anything that looks "unbiased" simply shares the same biases as you.

YZF 2y ago
Exactly right. What is "unbiased" or "neutral". That said I think some regulatory control is needed. There needs to be some sort of accountability e.g. for intentional propagation of fake news or censorship or defamation. This is no different than requirements for ethical behavior in other industries. Just like we regulate public companies in general we should be able to impose some requirements on any business that distributes media. Free speech for individuals but if you are a business or a media "provider" you need to meet a somewhat higher bar? I think we used to rely on journalistic standards or self regulation but with "new" media (and maybe even with old media) this seems to be not working that well any more. There's a fine line there for sure but seems like whether China owns some social media or someone with US citizenship we still want to have guards against harms this can cause. The amount of power these companies wield is scary.