8 ms·

The construction of the mafioso social capital and the Sack of Palermo (2023)

72 points by saturn5k 2y ago

Simon_ORourke 2y ago
Both in Palermo and in Naples, the business activities of the mafia can be categorized as extremely short-sighted profit squeezing, which I suppose is all you might expect from organizations operating mostly outside the law but with a firm grip on their respective societies (a bit like Google/Meta/Tesla I suppose).
- verisimi 2y ago
  ... /the government.
- dfxm12 2y ago
  Part of it is that the shelf life of a mob boss is not expected to be very long. You've got to get what you can, while you can.
- deputy 2y ago
  [deleted]
- costco 2y ago
  It seems like Sicily is an experiment in what happens when you let a few thousand people intimidate the rest of society into letting them cut in line and cheat on a grand scale. I bet the average person's cost of living and taxes are probably at least 5% higher than they otherwise would be as a result of extortion fees, cleanup costs from illegal dumping, VAT fraud, cartel/monopolistic behavior, etc.
davedx 2y ago
Oh no, they built tons of cheap affordable housing. How terrible of them! I’d be interested to hear the viewpoints of Sicilians on this one
- toyg 2y ago
  The Mafia always enjoyed some support among people who benefit from it, which is why they make this sort of populist move in the first place. That doesn't mean they are as legitimate as a proper democratic government. It's like saying "oh, the local feudal Lord helps us fight bandits!" - yeah, but he can also cut you down in the street without due process, doesn't care about your opinion, and might enforce ius primae noctis, without any recourse.
  - sparrowInHand 2y ago
    He also might be a upstart bandit in the first place. Such nobleness of mind and character. Gods chosen!
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
  - lelanthran 2y ago
    > It's like saying "oh, the local feudal Lord helps us fight bandits!" It's not exactly the same, because > - yeah, but he can also cut you down in the street without due process, doesn't care about your opinion, and might enforce ius primae noctis, without any recourse. If the mafioso goes too far they lose the support of the locals. I mean, sure, the population has no recourse when some henchman rapes some bride, but the organisation's management usually enforce their rules on their own members rigourously and violently, too. In the case of losing what little support they have with no profit involved, it's not hard to see why these organisations don't actually allow Droit De Signeur. They're a business, first and foremost. Allow, even encourage, violence to increase profits? Sure! Use violence just for kicks? Probably not.
    - xandrius 2y ago
      Are you actually trying to argue in support of the mafia?
      - 2y ago
xrd 2y ago
One of my favorite books is Excellent Cadavers. It's about two Italian judges that systematically root out corruption in Sicily, and pay for it with their lives. It is an incredible history of the path of fascism to the modern day Mafia. And the most interesting thing for me was how connected the Mafia are to the top levels of Italian government. Andreotti was definitely complicit.
- samuelec 2y ago
  Without having to go that far in the past, there are many evidences that Berlusconi had deep connection with mafia. Instead for Andreotti there are no evidence nor proofs, Andreotti was a very intelligent man and if he did or not something nobody was ever able to prove it.
  - gpderetta 2y ago
    > if he did or not something nobody was ever able to prove it. The court of cassation disagrees. And he wasn't condemned only because of statute of limitations.
  - specialist 2y ago
    Regarding Berlusconi from a far, I thought "Thank god nothing like that could happen here (USA)." Ahem. There are so many obvious parallels between Berlusconi and one of own, I can't fathom why it hasn't been discussed. (Maybe it has; I mostly tuned out our kayfabe for my mental health.)
    - em500 2y ago
      https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/15/opinion/the-trump-berlusconi-syndrome.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/15/opinion/the-trump-berlusc... "Nobody who knows Berlusconi and has watched the rise and rise of Donald Trump can fail to be struck by the parallels."
      - specialist 2y ago
        Well spotted. Thanks.
lifestyleguru 2y ago
My favorite part about Italy is how most sought for mafia bosses are "hiding" for their entire lives in their home regions and villages. The degree of "ignoring the obvious" is only comparable with the worst religious extremist, but also every country has is own equivalent of "ignoring the obvious".
AlbertCory 2y ago
A different take from a non-Italian. I'm curious what actual Italians think of this: I'm reading a book on how Spain gained and lost a world empire (I'd had it on my shelf forever and never read it): https://www.amazon.com/Empire-Spain-Became-World-1492-1763/dp/0060194766/ref=sr_1_1 https://www.amazon.com/Empire-Spain-Became-World-1492-1763/d... It said that many northern Italians believe that a big reason the Mafia is so dominant in southern Italy and Sicily is that it was ruled (loosely) by Spain a long time ago. True?
- nextos 2y ago
  Spain does not have any mafia-like structures. Modern mafia emerged in Sicily long after Spain (actually Aragon) were gone, probably because of many different factors. One should not forget the Kingdom of Two Sicilies was quite wealthy and advanced at the time of the Italian Reunification, but crumbled shortly afterwards. There was a big wealth transfer South to North. Nonetheless, it's still a lovely place.
  - AlbertCory 2y ago
    > Spain does not have any mafia-like structures. I didn't say they did.
- frankohn 2y ago
  I am from Sicily, near Palermo. In my humble opinion the main reason of emergency of Mafia was injustice and bad government, most prominently from Bourbon family but also from previous kingdoms. When there is injustice and bad government you learn to despise the authorities and the laws and your priority is the survival. Sicily was great when it was governed by the Normands but that didn't last for a long time. I live now in Switzerland and I am studying its history. It seems one of the reason of Switzerland prosperity and order was they never got a prince or a king but cities were autonomously governing themselves.
- skrtskrt 2y ago
  The South being considered an actual part of Italy is a pretty new concept and not completely accepted by either the south or the north. The north is sophisticated, cosmopolitan, industrialized, and has tons of arable farmland and just generally money running through it. Culturally it's more French / white European. The south has very little arable land, it is rocky and hilly. It does not lend itself well to large-scale agriculture. It was largely ruled in a feudal system for a very very long time, which then collapsed into the peasant families each being given land ownership of plots too small to sustain a family. It has also been a target of conquering by Greeks, Ottoman Turks, and many many many more cultures due to its critical location for shipping lanes - so it's been sort "ran over" too many times to count. The fact that the real power structure has turned over so many times has led to lots of very very localized, unofficial power structures that represent sort of local "fiefdoms" which exist outside of the modern governmental structures. Subsequently, it has built its own mythology of being "unconquerable" or "ungovernable" and not really a part of "Italy" - where "Italy" is seen as an outside power which builds into the mythology that helps the mafioso gain and retain control. Edit: for very enjoyable (and highly regarded) novel that gets at the mafioso / Southern mythology about this, I highly recommend Black Souls.

72 points by saturn5k 2y ago

Both in Palermo and in Naples, the business activities of the mafia can be categorized as extremely short-sighted profit squeezing, which I suppose is all you might expect from organizations operating mostly outside the law but with a firm grip on their respective societies (a bit like Google/Meta/Tesla I suppose).

verisimi 2y ago
... /the government.
dfxm12 2y ago
Part of it is that the shelf life of a mob boss is not expected to be very long. You've got to get what you can, while you can.
deputy 2y ago
[deleted]
costco 2y ago
It seems like Sicily is an experiment in what happens when you let a few thousand people intimidate the rest of society into letting them cut in line and cheat on a grand scale. I bet the average person's cost of living and taxes are probably at least 5% higher than they otherwise would be as a result of extortion fees, cleanup costs from illegal dumping, VAT fraud, cartel/monopolistic behavior, etc.

davedx 2y ago

Oh no, they built tons of cheap affordable housing. How terrible of them! I’d be interested to hear the viewpoints of Sicilians on this one

toyg 2y ago
The Mafia always enjoyed some support among people who benefit from it, which is why they make this sort of populist move in the first place. That doesn't mean they are as legitimate as a proper democratic government. It's like saying "oh, the local feudal Lord helps us fight bandits!" - yeah, but he can also cut you down in the street without due process, doesn't care about your opinion, and might enforce ius primae noctis, without any recourse.
- sparrowInHand 2y ago
  He also might be a upstart bandit in the first place. Such nobleness of mind and character. Gods chosen!
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- lelanthran 2y ago
  > It's like saying "oh, the local feudal Lord helps us fight bandits!" It's not exactly the same, because > - yeah, but he can also cut you down in the street without due process, doesn't care about your opinion, and might enforce ius primae noctis, without any recourse. If the mafioso goes too far they lose the support of the locals. I mean, sure, the population has no recourse when some henchman rapes some bride, but the organisation's management usually enforce their rules on their own members rigourously and violently, too. In the case of losing what little support they have with no profit involved, it's not hard to see why these organisations don't actually allow Droit De Signeur. They're a business, first and foremost. Allow, even encourage, violence to increase profits? Sure! Use violence just for kicks? Probably not.
  - xandrius 2y ago
    Are you actually trying to argue in support of the mafia?
    - 2y ago

xrd 2y ago

One of my favorite books is Excellent Cadavers. It's about two Italian judges that systematically root out corruption in Sicily, and pay for it with their lives. It is an incredible history of the path of fascism to the modern day Mafia. And the most interesting thing for me was how connected the Mafia are to the top levels of Italian government. Andreotti was definitely complicit.

samuelec 2y ago
Without having to go that far in the past, there are many evidences that Berlusconi had deep connection with mafia. Instead for Andreotti there are no evidence nor proofs, Andreotti was a very intelligent man and if he did or not something nobody was ever able to prove it.
- gpderetta 2y ago
  > if he did or not something nobody was ever able to prove it. The court of cassation disagrees. And he wasn't condemned only because of statute of limitations.
- specialist 2y ago
  Regarding Berlusconi from a far, I thought "Thank god nothing like that could happen here (USA)." Ahem. There are so many obvious parallels between Berlusconi and one of own, I can't fathom why it hasn't been discussed. (Maybe it has; I mostly tuned out our kayfabe for my mental health.)
  - em500 2y ago
    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/15/opinion/the-trump-berlusconi-syndrome.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/15/opinion/the-trump-berlusc... "Nobody who knows Berlusconi and has watched the rise and rise of Donald Trump can fail to be struck by the parallels."
    - specialist 2y ago
      Well spotted. Thanks.

lifestyleguru 2y ago

My favorite part about Italy is how most sought for mafia bosses are "hiding" for their entire lives in their home regions and villages. The degree of "ignoring the obvious" is only comparable with the worst religious extremist, but also every country has is own equivalent of "ignoring the obvious".

AlbertCory 2y ago

A different take from a non-Italian. I'm curious what actual Italians think of this: I'm reading a book on how Spain gained and lost a world empire (I'd had it on my shelf forever and never read it): https://www.amazon.com/Empire-Spain-Became-World-1492-1763/dp/0060194766/ref=sr_1_1 https://www.amazon.com/Empire-Spain-Became-World-1492-1763/d... It said that many northern Italians believe that a big reason the Mafia is so dominant in southern Italy and Sicily is that it was ruled (loosely) by Spain a long time ago. True?

nextos 2y ago
Spain does not have any mafia-like structures. Modern mafia emerged in Sicily long after Spain (actually Aragon) were gone, probably because of many different factors. One should not forget the Kingdom of Two Sicilies was quite wealthy and advanced at the time of the Italian Reunification, but crumbled shortly afterwards. There was a big wealth transfer South to North. Nonetheless, it's still a lovely place.
- AlbertCory 2y ago
  > Spain does not have any mafia-like structures. I didn't say they did.
frankohn 2y ago
I am from Sicily, near Palermo. In my humble opinion the main reason of emergency of Mafia was injustice and bad government, most prominently from Bourbon family but also from previous kingdoms. When there is injustice and bad government you learn to despise the authorities and the laws and your priority is the survival. Sicily was great when it was governed by the Normands but that didn't last for a long time. I live now in Switzerland and I am studying its history. It seems one of the reason of Switzerland prosperity and order was they never got a prince or a king but cities were autonomously governing themselves.
skrtskrt 2y ago
The South being considered an actual part of Italy is a pretty new concept and not completely accepted by either the south or the north. The north is sophisticated, cosmopolitan, industrialized, and has tons of arable farmland and just generally money running through it. Culturally it's more French / white European. The south has very little arable land, it is rocky and hilly. It does not lend itself well to large-scale agriculture. It was largely ruled in a feudal system for a very very long time, which then collapsed into the peasant families each being given land ownership of plots too small to sustain a family. It has also been a target of conquering by Greeks, Ottoman Turks, and many many many more cultures due to its critical location for shipping lanes - so it's been sort "ran over" too many times to count. The fact that the real power structure has turned over so many times has led to lots of very very localized, unofficial power structures that represent sort of local "fiefdoms" which exist outside of the modern governmental structures. Subsequently, it has built its own mythology of being "unconquerable" or "ungovernable" and not really a part of "Italy" - where "Italy" is seen as an outside power which builds into the mythology that helps the mafioso gain and retain control. Edit: for very enjoyable (and highly regarded) novel that gets at the mafioso / Southern mythology about this, I highly recommend Black Souls.