8 ms·

Framework won't be just a laptop company anymore

63 points by rpgbr 2y ago

unsupp0rted 2y ago
Do people love the Framework laptop? Or is it a sacrifice made for philosophical reasons, compared to say an M-series MacBook.
- Kuinox 2y ago
  It's hard to find a decent laptop PC theses days. Dell firmware is crap. I have 2 HP in the family, both batteries died overnight, same for the spare batteries. Lenovo laptop wasn't nice either. Si this time I bought a framework, I hope it will be better.
  - panick21_ 2y ago
    I compared Framework and the ThinkPad. The ThinkPad came out ahead. But Framework also doesn't deliver to where I live. Main issue with Framework is that 13'' is to small and 16'' is to big.
    - Kuinox 2y ago
      I thought 13" would be too small but it's all right, i was used to thick screen bezels. ThinkPad is made by Lenovo, when I see how bad the Lenovo laptop of my dad is, I don't think I will buy a Lenovo one day.
      - fragmede 2y ago
        Thinkpad and non-Thinkpad Lenovo's aren't built the same, don't base an opinion on Thinkpads off bad Lenovo gear.
- yogorenapan 2y ago
  I own a Framework 13. It’s slightly overpriced but I would take it any day over a MacBook. It runs Linux perfectly fine with no driver issues and is in general pretty high quality.
- magnio 2y ago
  I feel like my MacBook is a sacrifice too: trading great battery life for a godforsaken OS.
  - pjerem 2y ago
    FWIW, Fedora Asahi works impressively well. In fact it can already be a nice daily driver if you dont need external displays, integrated mic or touchID (they are working on all of this but they started with the hard work). I’d recommend anyone interested to at least try it (it’s really easy like one command to run and doesn’t break anything) because it’s already a nice experience.
  - aitchnyu 2y ago
    Why do you decribe Macos this way?
- aritashion 2y ago
  My only interests are in repairability, upgradability and ability run a Linux distro. If it meets those reqs, I'd then look at price and firmware openness. I've soldered on a GPU chip to my Thinkpad t480 and it was fairly easy. If I can do something similar with either of them I'd be interested.
- ctrw 2y ago
  I've had a framework for 3 years now and it just works. Higher build quality than think pads and runs Linux perfectly. This is coming from someone who had a franken 400/420t hybrid until 2019.
- dguest 2y ago
  I regret having a mac all the time. For me getting a new laptop is coupled with getting a new job, and I never want to spend the first month on the job debugging drivers. Self-inflicted FUD has been the only thing keeping me in the mac ecosystem. I miss the crappy laptop with Xubuntu that I had in university. If framework keeps it up I'll eventually move back.
- constantcrying 2y ago
  My framework 13 does exactly what I want. It is a small relatively light Laptop with great Linux support, very nice display and good selection of ports. I wouldn't buy a MacBook for software reasons, the Framework takes many design elements from it though.
- bjord 2y ago
  battery-wise it's a sacrifice, but only because I run linux wouldn't really be a problem if I were on windows
- i3oi3 2y ago
  We got one, and we love it. My daughter dropped hers and bent the case. We ordered a new case (which, admittedly, was a significant percentage of the price of a new laptop) and had it repaired within an hour of delivery.
- pcdoodle 2y ago
  It's a solid laptop. If I was running x86, it would be my daily. I use my framework for field work and it's great. 30 hour battery life idle on the 11th gen at min brightness (Windows)
- starkparker 2y ago
  I bought it primarily for the 3:2 screen after getting a Surface Laptop, which was such a lemon that it spent more time in transit for service than in use before I got rid of it. Have since swapped out every component but the screen, antenna, and chassis; the old Intel mainboard, wifi, and audio card are now in the standalone Cooler Master case driving a projector as a media center and server. My work provides a M1 MBP; it's fine, but I usually bring my Framework when I want to get actual work done on the move. The Framework works with my external display but suffers from screen flicker on the M1.[1] 1: https://www.benq.com/en-us/knowledge-center/knowledge/how-to-fix-mac-m1-m2-external-monitor-flicker.html https://www.benq.com/en-us/knowledge-center/knowledge/how-to...
- marssaxman 2y ago
  I can't claim to love the Framework laptop, as I have not yet gotten to try one, but I would like to love it; the feeling is more aspirational than sacrificial.
mhitza 2y ago
Hopefully with additional funding they're going to be able to expand to other countries as well. Currently they don't ship to most of the EU.
- sireat 2y ago
  Indeed. For the last few years I've hated getting e-mail updates from Framework that announce their progress. The emails implore to Order Now but alas I can not as my EU country is still not supported. Plenty of businesses sell hardware across EU from a single EU entity.
- lawn 2y ago
  Been waiting for it being available in Sweden for what feels like ages now. Sigh.
  - mananaysiempre 2y ago
    Note they have actually lifted the (illegal) ban on freight forwarding within the EU, if you’re willing to risk it. Only took, what, three years?..
    - frafra 2y ago
      Well, if I select Norway I read: "We haven’t opened ordering in your region yet, but we’re looking forward to getting there!" This is definitely illegal inside the European Economic Area, but I guess they are not aware of that. It is allowed not to ship to a specific area in some cases, but not refuse to sell entirely based on the country. If there is someone from Framework Computer Inc. reading this message: you do not need to comply with any local law if you are not targeting a specific country inside the European Economic Area; you just need to follow the EU rules. Therefore, it does not make any sense to prevent people from a specific EEA country to buy your products (and that is illegal as well). Please fix it! :)
      - mananaysiempre 2y ago
        See the KB article[1]. You’re supposed to find a freight forwarder in a EU country that they “support”, select that as your country and ship there (and thence wherever you actually want to). The only allowance is that they will deign to not actively decline your payment or cancel your order if you pay with a credit card from another EU country (unlike everywhere else in the “unsupported” world[2]). I guess that’s probably legal?.. (I don’t know if they actually mean EEA when they say EU, or if they actually mean EU. That may be important given you’re in Norway.) [1] https://knowledgebase.frame.work/eu-unsupported-SJByUb7a https://knowledgebase.frame.work/eu-unsupported-SJByUb7a [2] https://knowledgebase.frame.work/does-framework-support-freight-forwarding-of-products-to-unsupported-countries-regions-SJFhK43x9 https://knowledgebase.frame.work/does-framework-support-frei...
moralestapia 2y ago
Good! Here's an easy one, build a TV with no crap, no apps, no smart, no anything, literally just a screen. But make it gorgeous, solid build, OLED, 65+, etc...
- bjord 2y ago
  are TVs these days displaying ads over HDMI inputs or something? what's stopping you from just getting any modern TV and not using the "smart" features?
  - avidphantasm 2y ago
    FireTV-based TVs in my experience work okay most of the time, but occasionally it switches to the FireTV software by default and I have to fiddle around to get it to default to showing HDMI-1. Also, I'll bet the power usage is much higher than for a simple monitor.
- danpalmer 2y ago
  Framework's USP is not making simple products, it's making repairable and customisable ones. I don't think there's anything to do there with a TV – there aren't bits you want to replace unless you make it a smart TV where you can replace "the smart" or "the TV" in it independently. You could make the I/O modular, but there's also no reason to not just include a ton of I/O on a TV because it's already huge and HDMI sockets are cheap. The other issue here is that if you remove the crap/apps/smart/etc, you have to charge more, because TVs are typically subsidised by the post-purchase revenue flow that you can get from those features. Most people won't pay more for a TV that lacks features, that's a very niche market of HN commenters, and Framework have been explicit in wanting to move to less niche markets.
  - i3oi3 2y ago
    That was my first thought also. OTOH, Framework's business model is "we're going to charge you more to get that thing you actually wanted without locking you into stupid business models." I would absolutely pay a premium for a decent TV without all the advertising crap that pops up every time I turn on the TV.
PedroBatista 2y ago
I hope this is a good move, but I'm skeptical. One of the biggest killers of companies is the lost of focus and doing other things good or bad is taking focus from one thing to another.
- fock 2y ago
  yes, if they really wanted to be part of a socially responsible open/repairable hardware economy they might rather start building a buyers cooperative with fairphone and others...
- panick21_ 2y ago
  After 5 years working towards a 3rd product line doesn't seem that crazy. Specially because as he points out, lots of the design people don't have to continue to work on those products.
  - PedroBatista 2y ago
    The question is, are those existing product lines profitable now and in the future with the work done in the last 5 years? And if they take the foot off the gas now, how will their laptop business look like in ~3 years? I've seen too many carrot on a stick situations fueled by continuous VC money, until the whole thing implodes to be 100% behind this without questions. I hope this is one of the good examples where things work out.
    - panick21_ 2y ago
      They are not designing their own processors so they can't massively accelerate producing better laptops. Because of their philosophy they are constant on more models or doing to many changes to those laptop lines. They are not really 'taking the foot of the gas', there simply isn't a great way for them to sell more of those product lines. Their industrial designers aren't gone make those lines profitable. But yes, if their current laptop line isn't profitable, just adding new product lines likely isn't gone safe their business.
- CoastalCoder 2y ago
bjord 2y ago
it would be quite funny if it just ended up being basic desktop tower PCs
- gary_0 2y ago
  If all the parts had extremely solid Linux support, I wouldn't even be mad. They could have gaming-focused builds for Proton users, and partner with Valve so Steam gaming works out of the box with silky smooth frame rates. Something you could point suffering Windows gamers to that Just Works.
  - bjord 2y ago
    agreed, it's just not obvious to me what they'd be able to offer over a company like system76, for example
- hinkley 2y ago
  I want them to build a blade server, but it sounds like they’re pointed in the opposite direction.
gary_0 2y ago
They're letting my imagination run away with me. Imagine: A tablet form factor with a documented electrical interface for magnetic attachments (like an MS Surface style keyboard) that can run Android or Linux, or be repurposed for embedded or IoT touch interfaces. A NUC or Raspberry Pi type device with a beefy AMD SoC inside, with optional battery support. Maybe it's thin and light enough that it could have snap-on touchscreen and gaming attachments that Lego together into a custom Steam Deck. A solid TV without any built-in advertising junk, maybe running Android. The chassis, display panel, controller board, CPU board, and remote control can be purchased separately, of course. A sleek and repairable smartphone where you can even replace the stock Android with Linux, where all the peripherals are documented and have open drivers, so with the right software you can have a Linux phone that doesn't suck.
- pzo 2y ago
  I hope kind of all in one nuc device that can be a hackable: router,local media + backup, smart speaker, smart TV, wireless charger pad. Currently you have to buy separate device and update each time there is wifi 6, wifi 6e or wifi7 spec bump. Also most of the time no reason to have a dedicated smart tv and smart speaker if speaker can be just magnetic attachment
- wishfish 2y ago
  That's a good list. Would be interesting if they followed in the footsteps of Pine (Pinephone, Pine64, Pine book) but with higher quality products. Would imagine Fairphone would be an inspiration as well. If I had to pick any one of those things specifically, it would be the NUC. MiniPCs seem fairly popular these days. But many of them come from Chinese companies with varying degrees of quality and support. Seems like there's an opening. Especially since Framework already sells a MiniPC of sorts: the CoolerMaster case + mainboard. Something with a premium case, customizable ports, and upgradeable RAM + SSD, would be a perfect fit for what they're already doing.
- hawski 2y ago
  If they would do a small low-power SBC it would be great if it could be used as an alternative main-board for a Framework laptop. Fill out the remaining space with additional battery.
segmondy 2y ago
AI company, will now be known as AI Framework.
lioeters 2y ago
The only concrete information is that they raised $18m. Nothing about what they will be working on other than laptops. > After five years building laptops, what might Framework add to the portfolio? Patel won’t say — I only get the barest hints, no matter how many different ways I ask. > He won’t even say if they’ll make less or more of a splash than laptops. Framework might choose an “equally difficult” category or might instead try something “a bit smaller and simpler to execute, streamlined now that we have all this infrastructure.”
- qzw 2y ago
  Obviously $18m isn't enough to do a credible modern phone that's modular. Google couldn't bring one to market after investing probably at least an order of magnitude more in Project Ara. Plus the OS would be an even bigger challenge. So it must be something simpler and leverages some of their existing investments and know-how. But since this is VC money, the addressable market also needs to be big enough to be interesting. I'm thinking a modular version of the Steam Deck.
  - retrochameleon 2y ago
    I have a steam deck and I'm already pretty satisfied with it though. It's reasonably repairable, the devs seem to listen to the community, and it's already a linux-based device I can essentialy do whatever I want with.
fch42 2y ago
Does anyone have experience with Framework as a "small business supplier" ? I mean, how do they do if you try to get employee laptops through them, with 100 units/year or less ? How are their repair/lease-to-fix options in such a setup ? If you're a small business that does, or tried to, use framework laptops, what would you say on your experience?
- nrp 2y ago
  We do have a business program and are happy to answer questions you have on it: https://frame.work/framework-for-business https://frame.work/framework-for-business
bradfa 2y ago
Framework, please partner with Fairphone and bring their phones to market in the USA! Get their phones onto the major US cell providers' certification lists and start selling them here! Yes, there's already that Fairphone Murena partnership which brings the Fairphone 4 to the USA but it's loaded with a 3rd party ROM which is very non-ideal for a general Android phone audience who do expect the Google stuff to all be there and it only works on a subset of T-Mobile's network.
ianai 2y ago
Uhh how about a desktop tower case that takes in some number of their laptop logic boards and provides networking? Think like the “turingpi” motherboard but with an eye towards repurposing old logic boards. I could see purposes being local storage HA arrays (small scale media firms), perhaps some computational applications (local testing), k8s. Could be a boon for academics who otherwise might be priced out. Like 2k for the tower, less than 1k (old refurb) to 2k per blade. Might be doing something interesting for around 10k.
loudmax 2y ago
Since Nirav Patel appeared on Bryan Cantrill's Oxide podcast (https://oxide.computer/podcasts/oxide-and-friends/1632642 https://oxide.computer/podcasts/oxide-and-friends/1632642), I've been hoping for a crossover product. I'd be interested in buying Oxide compute for my homelab, but they only sell by the rack. It would be great to see them build a scaled down version of their product that runs on consumer grade hardware. This would give people interested in Oxide an easy way to run their Hubris OS on a supported platform. Since Oxide doesn't sell to consumers, Framework would be a great partner to resell something like this as retailers. Obviously, this isn't a mass market product, but it could be a profitable side hustle for Framework if they aren't the ones putting work into developing the product. For Oxide, this would be a marketing ploy rather than a revenue stream. The idea is to sell these to the kind of person who would run Proxmox for their homelab or small business, with the ultimate objective of building familiarity so these people have the confidence to push for Oxide at their day job or to their big business partners.
- denotational 2y ago
  Interesting, I’m curious what you have in mind: what concrete product would Framework be selling (1/2/4U server? Laptop? NUC? Tower?), and how does the involvement of Oxide distinguish the product? > It would be great to see them build a scaled down version of their product that runs on consumer grade hardware. I don’t quite follow this: I thought “compute and storage by the rack on custom hardware for better integration” is Oxide’s product? If you take that away, what is left? > This would give people interested in Oxide an easy way to run their Hubris OS on a supported platform. My understanding is that Hubris runs on the microcontrollers that are part of the Oxide control-plane; ignoring the why, where would this run on consumer hardware? Is the user going to see it, or is it just a case of, for example, some of the fan controller uCs now running Hubris instead of whatever they would run otherwise (probably bare-metal Arm in some manufacturer-proprietary framework)? As it happens, Hubris is already open source, so you can build/hack on it right now if you want to.
  - loudmax 2y ago
    What I have in mind is a platform to run virtual machines at home. This is definitely a niche product, but there's a significant overlap between nerds running kubernetes at home and people who have influence over what server products to buy for their datacenters. The form factor would be towers or NUCs, or something you could put under your desk without it sounding like a vacuum cleaner. The CPUs in Oxide racks are AMD, so, presumably AMD-based compute rather than ARM. The idea is to have a system that's as analogous to an Oxide rack as reasonably can be, but on a smaller, cheaper scale. Yes, Hubris is open source, but much of Oxide's value proposition is hardware integration. So the hardware would be at least vetted, if not completely designed from the ground up by Oxide and Framework. To be clear, I'm not making the argument that this product would be a slam dunk success for Oxide (or Framework). The benefits that I'm purporting might not be worth the cost of development. In the history of computing, a lot of the infrastructure development has tended to be bottom up rather than top down. Server racks are the descendants of PC's, not mainframes. This could be a way for Oxide to have something that aligns in that direction.
vlovich123 2y ago
Kudos for breaking ground on letting outside investors into a Series A [0], but it seems weird to just grant that voting power to the CEO. Can't tell if it's the CEO using that to reduce the dilution on his voting power due to the raise or a practical way to try to balance outside investment against the chaos of a hundred individual investors - if it's the latter it would make me feel better to proxy those voting shares to an investor & have the ability for the members to be able to vote to undo the proxy (especially interesting that the details of the proxy voting agreement aren't even posted so you can't make a determination a priori to applying). The former feels a little dishonest & a way for the CEO to make a cool 1M under his name without putting his own money on the line. Of course, I also don't have experience with this kind of setup. Am I reading too much into this & this is fine? [0] https://frameworkcomputer.typeform.com/community-round?typeform-source=frame.work https://frameworkcomputer.typeform.com/community-round?typef...
whazor 2y ago
Since Framework calls itself a consumer electronics company, it seems broader than being a 'computer company'. Under consumer electronics they could make almost anything, including home appliances, like microwaves, dishwashers, coffee makers. Or home entertainment like speakers or televisions.
8jef 2y ago
How about a Framework inkjet printer? That would be nice.
treprinum 2y ago
They should just copy what CWWK does and create boards stuffed with insane amounts of tech. ASRock/ASUS/SuperMicro can't cope with what is CWWK able to do these days.
ChrisArchitect 2y ago
More discussion on the official post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40132360 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40132360
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
RecycledEle 2y ago
Framework never has embraced COM Express modules. I have no idea why.
jarbus 2y ago
I’m eagerly anticipating a Snapdragon X Elite mainboard. Complete pipe dream, but a few years down the line I would love an electric car designed to be as repairable as a framework laptop. Knowing I could easily do maintenance, upgrades, and software updates would be amazing.
RexFactorem 2y ago
[dead]
rekabis 2y ago
Any company with a solid product would be able to expand into other product sectors based on the profit margins from that main product. The only thing investment does is abrogate control to “investors” who care only about profit. Once investors get their claws into an altruistic company, that altruism must take second shrift (if any presence at all) to short-term quarterly profits at any cost, including long-term viability. I mean, vampire/vulture capitalism has become absolutely endemic for a reason.

63 points by rpgbr 2y ago

Do people love the Framework laptop? Or is it a sacrifice made for philosophical reasons, compared to say an M-series MacBook.

Kuinox 2y ago
It's hard to find a decent laptop PC theses days. Dell firmware is crap. I have 2 HP in the family, both batteries died overnight, same for the spare batteries. Lenovo laptop wasn't nice either. Si this time I bought a framework, I hope it will be better.
- panick21_ 2y ago
  I compared Framework and the ThinkPad. The ThinkPad came out ahead. But Framework also doesn't deliver to where I live. Main issue with Framework is that 13'' is to small and 16'' is to big.
  - Kuinox 2y ago
    I thought 13" would be too small but it's all right, i was used to thick screen bezels. ThinkPad is made by Lenovo, when I see how bad the Lenovo laptop of my dad is, I don't think I will buy a Lenovo one day.
    - fragmede 2y ago
      Thinkpad and non-Thinkpad Lenovo's aren't built the same, don't base an opinion on Thinkpads off bad Lenovo gear.
yogorenapan 2y ago
I own a Framework 13. It’s slightly overpriced but I would take it any day over a MacBook. It runs Linux perfectly fine with no driver issues and is in general pretty high quality.
magnio 2y ago
I feel like my MacBook is a sacrifice too: trading great battery life for a godforsaken OS.
- pjerem 2y ago
  FWIW, Fedora Asahi works impressively well. In fact it can already be a nice daily driver if you dont need external displays, integrated mic or touchID (they are working on all of this but they started with the hard work). I’d recommend anyone interested to at least try it (it’s really easy like one command to run and doesn’t break anything) because it’s already a nice experience.
- aitchnyu 2y ago
  Why do you decribe Macos this way?
aritashion 2y ago
My only interests are in repairability, upgradability and ability run a Linux distro. If it meets those reqs, I'd then look at price and firmware openness. I've soldered on a GPU chip to my Thinkpad t480 and it was fairly easy. If I can do something similar with either of them I'd be interested.
ctrw 2y ago
I've had a framework for 3 years now and it just works. Higher build quality than think pads and runs Linux perfectly. This is coming from someone who had a franken 400/420t hybrid until 2019.
dguest 2y ago
I regret having a mac all the time. For me getting a new laptop is coupled with getting a new job, and I never want to spend the first month on the job debugging drivers. Self-inflicted FUD has been the only thing keeping me in the mac ecosystem. I miss the crappy laptop with Xubuntu that I had in university. If framework keeps it up I'll eventually move back.
constantcrying 2y ago
My framework 13 does exactly what I want. It is a small relatively light Laptop with great Linux support, very nice display and good selection of ports. I wouldn't buy a MacBook for software reasons, the Framework takes many design elements from it though.
bjord 2y ago
battery-wise it's a sacrifice, but only because I run linux wouldn't really be a problem if I were on windows
i3oi3 2y ago
We got one, and we love it. My daughter dropped hers and bent the case. We ordered a new case (which, admittedly, was a significant percentage of the price of a new laptop) and had it repaired within an hour of delivery.
pcdoodle 2y ago
It's a solid laptop. If I was running x86, it would be my daily. I use my framework for field work and it's great. 30 hour battery life idle on the 11th gen at min brightness (Windows)
starkparker 2y ago
I bought it primarily for the 3:2 screen after getting a Surface Laptop, which was such a lemon that it spent more time in transit for service than in use before I got rid of it. Have since swapped out every component but the screen, antenna, and chassis; the old Intel mainboard, wifi, and audio card are now in the standalone Cooler Master case driving a projector as a media center and server. My work provides a M1 MBP; it's fine, but I usually bring my Framework when I want to get actual work done on the move. The Framework works with my external display but suffers from screen flicker on the M1.[1] 1: https://www.benq.com/en-us/knowledge-center/knowledge/how-to-fix-mac-m1-m2-external-monitor-flicker.html https://www.benq.com/en-us/knowledge-center/knowledge/how-to...
marssaxman 2y ago
I can't claim to love the Framework laptop, as I have not yet gotten to try one, but I would like to love it; the feeling is more aspirational than sacrificial.

mhitza 2y ago

Hopefully with additional funding they're going to be able to expand to other countries as well. Currently they don't ship to most of the EU.

sireat 2y ago
Indeed. For the last few years I've hated getting e-mail updates from Framework that announce their progress. The emails implore to Order Now but alas I can not as my EU country is still not supported. Plenty of businesses sell hardware across EU from a single EU entity.
lawn 2y ago
Been waiting for it being available in Sweden for what feels like ages now. Sigh.
- mananaysiempre 2y ago
  Note they have actually lifted the (illegal) ban on freight forwarding within the EU, if you’re willing to risk it. Only took, what, three years?..
  - frafra 2y ago
    Well, if I select Norway I read: "We haven’t opened ordering in your region yet, but we’re looking forward to getting there!" This is definitely illegal inside the European Economic Area, but I guess they are not aware of that. It is allowed not to ship to a specific area in some cases, but not refuse to sell entirely based on the country. If there is someone from Framework Computer Inc. reading this message: you do not need to comply with any local law if you are not targeting a specific country inside the European Economic Area; you just need to follow the EU rules. Therefore, it does not make any sense to prevent people from a specific EEA country to buy your products (and that is illegal as well). Please fix it! :)
    - mananaysiempre 2y ago
      See the KB article[1]. You’re supposed to find a freight forwarder in a EU country that they “support”, select that as your country and ship there (and thence wherever you actually want to). The only allowance is that they will deign to not actively decline your payment or cancel your order if you pay with a credit card from another EU country (unlike everywhere else in the “unsupported” world[2]). I guess that’s probably legal?.. (I don’t know if they actually mean EEA when they say EU, or if they actually mean EU. That may be important given you’re in Norway.) [1] https://knowledgebase.frame.work/eu-unsupported-SJByUb7a https://knowledgebase.frame.work/eu-unsupported-SJByUb7a [2] https://knowledgebase.frame.work/does-framework-support-freight-forwarding-of-products-to-unsupported-countries-regions-SJFhK43x9 https://knowledgebase.frame.work/does-framework-support-frei...

moralestapia 2y ago

Good! Here's an easy one, build a TV with no crap, no apps, no smart, no anything, literally just a screen. But make it gorgeous, solid build, OLED, 65+, etc...

bjord 2y ago
are TVs these days displaying ads over HDMI inputs or something? what's stopping you from just getting any modern TV and not using the "smart" features?
- avidphantasm 2y ago
  FireTV-based TVs in my experience work okay most of the time, but occasionally it switches to the FireTV software by default and I have to fiddle around to get it to default to showing HDMI-1. Also, I'll bet the power usage is much higher than for a simple monitor.
danpalmer 2y ago
Framework's USP is not making simple products, it's making repairable and customisable ones. I don't think there's anything to do there with a TV – there aren't bits you want to replace unless you make it a smart TV where you can replace "the smart" or "the TV" in it independently. You could make the I/O modular, but there's also no reason to not just include a ton of I/O on a TV because it's already huge and HDMI sockets are cheap. The other issue here is that if you remove the crap/apps/smart/etc, you have to charge more, because TVs are typically subsidised by the post-purchase revenue flow that you can get from those features. Most people won't pay more for a TV that lacks features, that's a very niche market of HN commenters, and Framework have been explicit in wanting to move to less niche markets.
- i3oi3 2y ago
  That was my first thought also. OTOH, Framework's business model is "we're going to charge you more to get that thing you actually wanted without locking you into stupid business models." I would absolutely pay a premium for a decent TV without all the advertising crap that pops up every time I turn on the TV.

PedroBatista 2y ago

I hope this is a good move, but I'm skeptical. One of the biggest killers of companies is the lost of focus and doing other things good or bad is taking focus from one thing to another.

fock 2y ago
yes, if they really wanted to be part of a socially responsible open/repairable hardware economy they might rather start building a buyers cooperative with fairphone and others...
panick21_ 2y ago
After 5 years working towards a 3rd product line doesn't seem that crazy. Specially because as he points out, lots of the design people don't have to continue to work on those products.
- PedroBatista 2y ago
  The question is, are those existing product lines profitable now and in the future with the work done in the last 5 years? And if they take the foot off the gas now, how will their laptop business look like in ~3 years? I've seen too many carrot on a stick situations fueled by continuous VC money, until the whole thing implodes to be 100% behind this without questions. I hope this is one of the good examples where things work out.
  - panick21_ 2y ago
    They are not designing their own processors so they can't massively accelerate producing better laptops. Because of their philosophy they are constant on more models or doing to many changes to those laptop lines. They are not really 'taking the foot of the gas', there simply isn't a great way for them to sell more of those product lines. Their industrial designers aren't gone make those lines profitable. But yes, if their current laptop line isn't profitable, just adding new product lines likely isn't gone safe their business.
CoastalCoder 2y ago

bjord 2y ago

it would be quite funny if it just ended up being basic desktop tower PCs

gary_0 2y ago
If all the parts had extremely solid Linux support, I wouldn't even be mad. They could have gaming-focused builds for Proton users, and partner with Valve so Steam gaming works out of the box with silky smooth frame rates. Something you could point suffering Windows gamers to that Just Works.
- bjord 2y ago
  agreed, it's just not obvious to me what they'd be able to offer over a company like system76, for example
hinkley 2y ago
I want them to build a blade server, but it sounds like they’re pointed in the opposite direction.

gary_0 2y ago

They're letting my imagination run away with me. Imagine: A tablet form factor with a documented electrical interface for magnetic attachments (like an MS Surface style keyboard) that can run Android or Linux, or be repurposed for embedded or IoT touch interfaces. A NUC or Raspberry Pi type device with a beefy AMD SoC inside, with optional battery support. Maybe it's thin and light enough that it could have snap-on touchscreen and gaming attachments that Lego together into a custom Steam Deck. A solid TV without any built-in advertising junk, maybe running Android. The chassis, display panel, controller board, CPU board, and remote control can be purchased separately, of course. A sleek and repairable smartphone where you can even replace the stock Android with Linux, where all the peripherals are documented and have open drivers, so with the right software you can have a Linux phone that doesn't suck.

pzo 2y ago
I hope kind of all in one nuc device that can be a hackable: router,local media + backup, smart speaker, smart TV, wireless charger pad. Currently you have to buy separate device and update each time there is wifi 6, wifi 6e or wifi7 spec bump. Also most of the time no reason to have a dedicated smart tv and smart speaker if speaker can be just magnetic attachment
wishfish 2y ago
That's a good list. Would be interesting if they followed in the footsteps of Pine (Pinephone, Pine64, Pine book) but with higher quality products. Would imagine Fairphone would be an inspiration as well. If I had to pick any one of those things specifically, it would be the NUC. MiniPCs seem fairly popular these days. But many of them come from Chinese companies with varying degrees of quality and support. Seems like there's an opening. Especially since Framework already sells a MiniPC of sorts: the CoolerMaster case + mainboard. Something with a premium case, customizable ports, and upgradeable RAM + SSD, would be a perfect fit for what they're already doing.
hawski 2y ago
If they would do a small low-power SBC it would be great if it could be used as an alternative main-board for a Framework laptop. Fill out the remaining space with additional battery.

segmondy 2y ago

AI company, will now be known as AI Framework.

lioeters 2y ago

The only concrete information is that they raised $18m. Nothing about what they will be working on other than laptops. > After five years building laptops, what might Framework add to the portfolio? Patel won’t say — I only get the barest hints, no matter how many different ways I ask. > He won’t even say if they’ll make less or more of a splash than laptops. Framework might choose an “equally difficult” category or might instead try something “a bit smaller and simpler to execute, streamlined now that we have all this infrastructure.”

qzw 2y ago
Obviously $18m isn't enough to do a credible modern phone that's modular. Google couldn't bring one to market after investing probably at least an order of magnitude more in Project Ara. Plus the OS would be an even bigger challenge. So it must be something simpler and leverages some of their existing investments and know-how. But since this is VC money, the addressable market also needs to be big enough to be interesting. I'm thinking a modular version of the Steam Deck.
- retrochameleon 2y ago
  I have a steam deck and I'm already pretty satisfied with it though. It's reasonably repairable, the devs seem to listen to the community, and it's already a linux-based device I can essentialy do whatever I want with.

fch42 2y ago

Does anyone have experience with Framework as a "small business supplier" ? I mean, how do they do if you try to get employee laptops through them, with 100 units/year or less ? How are their repair/lease-to-fix options in such a setup ? If you're a small business that does, or tried to, use framework laptops, what would you say on your experience?

nrp 2y ago
We do have a business program and are happy to answer questions you have on it: https://frame.work/framework-for-business https://frame.work/framework-for-business

bradfa 2y ago

Framework, please partner with Fairphone and bring their phones to market in the USA! Get their phones onto the major US cell providers' certification lists and start selling them here! Yes, there's already that Fairphone Murena partnership which brings the Fairphone 4 to the USA but it's loaded with a 3rd party ROM which is very non-ideal for a general Android phone audience who do expect the Google stuff to all be there and it only works on a subset of T-Mobile's network.

ianai 2y ago

Uhh how about a desktop tower case that takes in some number of their laptop logic boards and provides networking? Think like the “turingpi” motherboard but with an eye towards repurposing old logic boards. I could see purposes being local storage HA arrays (small scale media firms), perhaps some computational applications (local testing), k8s. Could be a boon for academics who otherwise might be priced out. Like 2k for the tower, less than 1k (old refurb) to 2k per blade. Might be doing something interesting for around 10k.

loudmax 2y ago

Since Nirav Patel appeared on Bryan Cantrill's Oxide podcast (https://oxide.computer/podcasts/oxide-and-friends/1632642 https://oxide.computer/podcasts/oxide-and-friends/1632642), I've been hoping for a crossover product. I'd be interested in buying Oxide compute for my homelab, but they only sell by the rack. It would be great to see them build a scaled down version of their product that runs on consumer grade hardware. This would give people interested in Oxide an easy way to run their Hubris OS on a supported platform. Since Oxide doesn't sell to consumers, Framework would be a great partner to resell something like this as retailers. Obviously, this isn't a mass market product, but it could be a profitable side hustle for Framework if they aren't the ones putting work into developing the product. For Oxide, this would be a marketing ploy rather than a revenue stream. The idea is to sell these to the kind of person who would run Proxmox for their homelab or small business, with the ultimate objective of building familiarity so these people have the confidence to push for Oxide at their day job or to their big business partners.

denotational 2y ago
Interesting, I’m curious what you have in mind: what concrete product would Framework be selling (1/2/4U server? Laptop? NUC? Tower?), and how does the involvement of Oxide distinguish the product? > It would be great to see them build a scaled down version of their product that runs on consumer grade hardware. I don’t quite follow this: I thought “compute and storage by the rack on custom hardware for better integration” is Oxide’s product? If you take that away, what is left? > This would give people interested in Oxide an easy way to run their Hubris OS on a supported platform. My understanding is that Hubris runs on the microcontrollers that are part of the Oxide control-plane; ignoring the why, where would this run on consumer hardware? Is the user going to see it, or is it just a case of, for example, some of the fan controller uCs now running Hubris instead of whatever they would run otherwise (probably bare-metal Arm in some manufacturer-proprietary framework)? As it happens, Hubris is already open source, so you can build/hack on it right now if you want to.
- loudmax 2y ago
  What I have in mind is a platform to run virtual machines at home. This is definitely a niche product, but there's a significant overlap between nerds running kubernetes at home and people who have influence over what server products to buy for their datacenters. The form factor would be towers or NUCs, or something you could put under your desk without it sounding like a vacuum cleaner. The CPUs in Oxide racks are AMD, so, presumably AMD-based compute rather than ARM. The idea is to have a system that's as analogous to an Oxide rack as reasonably can be, but on a smaller, cheaper scale. Yes, Hubris is open source, but much of Oxide's value proposition is hardware integration. So the hardware would be at least vetted, if not completely designed from the ground up by Oxide and Framework. To be clear, I'm not making the argument that this product would be a slam dunk success for Oxide (or Framework). The benefits that I'm purporting might not be worth the cost of development. In the history of computing, a lot of the infrastructure development has tended to be bottom up rather than top down. Server racks are the descendants of PC's, not mainframes. This could be a way for Oxide to have something that aligns in that direction.

vlovich123 2y ago

Kudos for breaking ground on letting outside investors into a Series A [0], but it seems weird to just grant that voting power to the CEO. Can't tell if it's the CEO using that to reduce the dilution on his voting power due to the raise or a practical way to try to balance outside investment against the chaos of a hundred individual investors - if it's the latter it would make me feel better to proxy those voting shares to an investor & have the ability for the members to be able to vote to undo the proxy (especially interesting that the details of the proxy voting agreement aren't even posted so you can't make a determination a priori to applying). The former feels a little dishonest & a way for the CEO to make a cool 1M under his name without putting his own money on the line. Of course, I also don't have experience with this kind of setup. Am I reading too much into this & this is fine? [0] https://frameworkcomputer.typeform.com/community-round?typeform-source=frame.work https://frameworkcomputer.typeform.com/community-round?typef...

whazor 2y ago

Since Framework calls itself a consumer electronics company, it seems broader than being a 'computer company'. Under consumer electronics they could make almost anything, including home appliances, like microwaves, dishwashers, coffee makers. Or home entertainment like speakers or televisions.

8jef 2y ago

How about a Framework inkjet printer? That would be nice.

treprinum 2y ago

They should just copy what CWWK does and create boards stuffed with insane amounts of tech. ASRock/ASUS/SuperMicro can't cope with what is CWWK able to do these days.

ChrisArchitect 2y ago

More discussion on the official post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40132360 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40132360

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

RecycledEle 2y ago

Framework never has embraced COM Express modules. I have no idea why.

jarbus 2y ago

I’m eagerly anticipating a Snapdragon X Elite mainboard. Complete pipe dream, but a few years down the line I would love an electric car designed to be as repairable as a framework laptop. Knowing I could easily do maintenance, upgrades, and software updates would be amazing.

RexFactorem 2y ago

[dead]

rekabis 2y ago

Any company with a solid product would be able to expand into other product sectors based on the profit margins from that main product. The only thing investment does is abrogate control to “investors” who care only about profit. Once investors get their claws into an altruistic company, that altruism must take second shrift (if any presence at all) to short-term quarterly profits at any cost, including long-term viability. I mean, vampire/vulture capitalism has become absolutely endemic for a reason.