4 ms·

> Models 3/Y are literally one of the cheapest EVs available in EU/US? Er, no. Peugeot, Renault, Volkswagen etc. all make (way) cheaper models. Heck, even Volv

by tnolet 2y ago

> Models 3/Y are literally one of the cheapest EVs available in EU/US? Er, no. Peugeot, Renault, Volkswagen etc. all make (way) cheaper models. Heck, even Volvo now has an EV (the EX30) that is ~EUR 8k cheaper than a Model y. Not even mentioning the Asian brand like Hyundai etc.

pvaldes 2y ago
Shh... I'll tell you a secret. For years and years a lot of the electric vehicles in lots of brands, weren't meant to be sold. The public were even advised by the car dealers not to buy them, and they were made so unattractive as possible. In part because the carmakers were probably unsure about its long term performance with a totally new technology, but the main reason was other. It just happens that the environmental emissions of a car maker fleet was calculated as the average of emissions from all their models in the current market. Those tiny, squared EV that looked like toys were built with the only purpose to decrease the brand average value. Thus they could have models contaminating more in the upper categories. (Plus painting the brand in green for PR purposes). All of this changed after Tesla started to show its claws and to be taken seriously.
- arethuza 2y ago
  But as you say this has all changed - all those brands are now pushing electric cars as strongly as Tesla?
- constantcrying 2y ago
  This certainly isn't true now though. No matter what the car makers want, they have to face the reality that in the relatively near future non EVs will be banned. Right now VW is even protesting suggestions that the coming ICE ban should be overturned.
- kstrauser 2y ago
  That’s an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary proof. I can’t imagine any brand spending tens of millions of dollars to make a car that they don’t want to sell. I’d also like to see evidence that fleet fuel economy is (mileage / number of unique car models) and not (mileage / number of cars sold).
  - arethuza 2y ago
    To be fair back ~8 or so years ago VW did have e-Golfs in dealer showrooms but the actual dealerships seemed really reluctant to sell them - my wife asked about one at the back of a showroom and basically had the salesman spend his time explaining why not to buy it even though it was rather more expensive than the car she ended up buying. Things have totally changed though VW-group dealerships now really push electric cars and its the ICE cars that are stuck in the back.
    - constantcrying 2y ago
      Might just have been the dealer wanting to sell your wife a better car. Also cost != margin. >Things have totally changed though VW-group dealerships now really push electric cars and its the ICE cars that are stuck in the back. Yes. The e-Golf was essentially a Beta Test, a Golf 7 built into an EV. Nowadays VW EVs have their own dedicated platform.
      - arethuza 2y ago
        I'm sure there were reasons for it but it's the only time I've ever seen a salesman in a car dealership really want to NOT sell a particular car.
        pvaldes 2y ago
        I had heard similar histories, and this case is totally believable IMAO Of course sellers can have their own reasons to sell you this and not that. The maker tells their dealers how much cars of each model they must sell to keep the relationship as official dealer. If the seller is reluctant to sell a particular model you can expect that this model has not been assigned a high priority in the list of X cars that must be sold yearly to fill the objectives.
  - constantcrying 2y ago
    It's true: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_iQ#Aston_Martin_Cygnet https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_iQ#Aston_Martin_Cygne...
- tnolet 2y ago
  Could be true, I have no idea. All I know is I can buy some pretty damn nice EV's now from reputable companies for less than a Tesla.
- dagw 2y ago
  All of this changed after Tesla started to show its claws and to be taken seriously Absolutely Tesla is almost single handedly responsible for getting the EV market from where it was 10 years ago to where it is today. Without Tesla the EV market would almost certainly be years behind where it is right now. No argument from me on either point. The question is any of that relevant today? Tesla paved the way, but now the market is wide open and 'everybody' is jumping on. Does Tesla still have anything special to offer or will they just be another midsized 'luxury' car brand
  - arethuza 2y ago
    In the long term it is about as relevant as IBM creating the modern "PC".
    - red-iron-pine 2y ago
      didn't IBM just buy Red Hat, and is about to buy Hashicorp? I hate dealing with POWER8 systems, but the idea that IBM isn't relevant ain't true. arguably there is a Ship of Theseus argument that the company that built the PC is long, very long, dead.
- orwin 2y ago
  You're just rewriting history to push a US-centric point of view. Zoe started selling in 2012, a bit after the model S. Despite a lacking charging infrastructure, it lead the EV segment in europe for years, including hybrids in 2016 and 2020. It is one of the most sold EV in Europe still (production ended recently), and the most sold in France. I don't care what signal you want to send, i don't care if you were lied to or you are conscious you're doing it. Stop. It's like the "We invented the first mouse" used by Apple stans to prop up their favorite brand against Microsoft: nice for the brand war argument (no one cares, really), but now most people actually believe that and it's almost a truth. If you are USian, well, maybe improving your country political discourse start with improving your own discourse on social media, and if you're not: why are you pushing a foreign country narrative?
  - pvaldes 2y ago
    Zoe was not the first electric Renault. Do you remember that 2010 monstrosity the Twizy?. The early history of EV in European carmakers are plenty of WTF were they thinking?. Have you seen the Citroen Ami?. Later the brands gradually changed its mind, in part by the Renault success but mostly for Tesla. We could say many things about Tesla but at least they tried to build cars and not toasters from the start.

by tnolet 2y ago

pvaldes 2y ago

Shh... I'll tell you a secret. For years and years a lot of the electric vehicles in lots of brands, weren't meant to be sold. The public were even advised by the car dealers not to buy them, and they were made so unattractive as possible. In part because the carmakers were probably unsure about its long term performance with a totally new technology, but the main reason was other. It just happens that the environmental emissions of a car maker fleet was calculated as the average of emissions from all their models in the current market. Those tiny, squared EV that looked like toys were built with the only purpose to decrease the brand average value. Thus they could have models contaminating more in the upper categories. (Plus painting the brand in green for PR purposes). All of this changed after Tesla started to show its claws and to be taken seriously.

arethuza 2y ago
But as you say this has all changed - all those brands are now pushing electric cars as strongly as Tesla?
constantcrying 2y ago
This certainly isn't true now though. No matter what the car makers want, they have to face the reality that in the relatively near future non EVs will be banned. Right now VW is even protesting suggestions that the coming ICE ban should be overturned.
kstrauser 2y ago
That’s an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary proof. I can’t imagine any brand spending tens of millions of dollars to make a car that they don’t want to sell. I’d also like to see evidence that fleet fuel economy is (mileage / number of unique car models) and not (mileage / number of cars sold).
- arethuza 2y ago
  To be fair back ~8 or so years ago VW did have e-Golfs in dealer showrooms but the actual dealerships seemed really reluctant to sell them - my wife asked about one at the back of a showroom and basically had the salesman spend his time explaining why not to buy it even though it was rather more expensive than the car she ended up buying. Things have totally changed though VW-group dealerships now really push electric cars and its the ICE cars that are stuck in the back.
  - constantcrying 2y ago
    Might just have been the dealer wanting to sell your wife a better car. Also cost != margin. >Things have totally changed though VW-group dealerships now really push electric cars and its the ICE cars that are stuck in the back. Yes. The e-Golf was essentially a Beta Test, a Golf 7 built into an EV. Nowadays VW EVs have their own dedicated platform.
    - arethuza 2y ago
      I'm sure there were reasons for it but it's the only time I've ever seen a salesman in a car dealership really want to NOT sell a particular car.
      - pvaldes 2y ago
        I had heard similar histories, and this case is totally believable IMAO Of course sellers can have their own reasons to sell you this and not that. The maker tells their dealers how much cars of each model they must sell to keep the relationship as official dealer. If the seller is reluctant to sell a particular model you can expect that this model has not been assigned a high priority in the list of X cars that must be sold yearly to fill the objectives.
- constantcrying 2y ago
  It's true: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_iQ#Aston_Martin_Cygnet https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_iQ#Aston_Martin_Cygne...
tnolet 2y ago
Could be true, I have no idea. All I know is I can buy some pretty damn nice EV's now from reputable companies for less than a Tesla.
dagw 2y ago
All of this changed after Tesla started to show its claws and to be taken seriously Absolutely Tesla is almost single handedly responsible for getting the EV market from where it was 10 years ago to where it is today. Without Tesla the EV market would almost certainly be years behind where it is right now. No argument from me on either point. The question is any of that relevant today? Tesla paved the way, but now the market is wide open and 'everybody' is jumping on. Does Tesla still have anything special to offer or will they just be another midsized 'luxury' car brand
- arethuza 2y ago
  In the long term it is about as relevant as IBM creating the modern "PC".
  - red-iron-pine 2y ago
    didn't IBM just buy Red Hat, and is about to buy Hashicorp? I hate dealing with POWER8 systems, but the idea that IBM isn't relevant ain't true. arguably there is a Ship of Theseus argument that the company that built the PC is long, very long, dead.
orwin 2y ago
You're just rewriting history to push a US-centric point of view. Zoe started selling in 2012, a bit after the model S. Despite a lacking charging infrastructure, it lead the EV segment in europe for years, including hybrids in 2016 and 2020. It is one of the most sold EV in Europe still (production ended recently), and the most sold in France. I don't care what signal you want to send, i don't care if you were lied to or you are conscious you're doing it. Stop. It's like the "We invented the first mouse" used by Apple stans to prop up their favorite brand against Microsoft: nice for the brand war argument (no one cares, really), but now most people actually believe that and it's almost a truth. If you are USian, well, maybe improving your country political discourse start with improving your own discourse on social media, and if you're not: why are you pushing a foreign country narrative?
- pvaldes 2y ago
  Zoe was not the first electric Renault. Do you remember that 2010 monstrosity the Twizy?. The early history of EV in European carmakers are plenty of WTF were they thinking?. Have you seen the Citroen Ami?. Later the brands gradually changed its mind, in part by the Renault success but mostly for Tesla. We could say many things about Tesla but at least they tried to build cars and not toasters from the start.