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The Used TV Price Is Too Damn High
- midas 14y agoIt's amazing how much cheaper new TVs are getting, it's one tiny indicator of how much the quality of our lives (or at least or technology) is improving.
- ctdonath 14y agoAlso amazing how the value of our possessions is plummeting. There is very little one can buy which will hold value to any meaningful degree, much less appreciate in value.
- derleth 14y agoHave the things people buy most ever been the things that appreciate in value? Antiques derive their value from rarity, implying that most examples weren't good enough to survive. It's the "Old buildings were all well-made" fallacy.
- Retric 14y agoThat's part of it, but people also used to make a lot less stuff. The half life of a dresser made in 1850 might be ~50 years, but they did not make a lot of them. PS: It's hard to know, but I have heard it suggested that something like 10% of all dressers made in 1850 are probably still around somewhere.
- noonespecial 14y agoThe good news is that the product's ability to provide value is no longer explicitly tied to its ability to hold value.
- sliverstorm 14y agoReally? Outside of tech, I don't see items dropping in value any more than they would have a hundred years ago. Sure, used silverware commands a very low price, but I'm pretty sure that has been the case ever since we stopped making it out of silver.
- usaar333 14y agoPhysical manufactured goods tend to be depreciating assets. Cars, electronics, houses less taxes and maintenance, all come to mind.
- sk5t 14y agoThis has almost always been true; the few consumerish things that sometimes (but not very often) hold value or appreciate include: - Artwork, folk art, decorative items - Handmade furniture - Musical instruments - Firearms - Limited-production autos
- smsm42 14y agoMost consumer items are not investment, they are expenses. So one shouldn't have any hopes of holding or appreciating in value. Why you expect your TV be an investment that raises in value? Do you expect the same from your shoes?
- sp332 14y agoI charged about the same as the "new" price for my TV (which was about half what I paid for it), because it was better. The old one supports more video formats, has better color and nicer speakers than the model that was supposed to replace it.
- jarek 14y agoFor a post openly inviting HN comments, https://s3.amazonaws.com/pix-media/TV+Categories.png https://s3.amazonaws.com/pix-media/TV+Categories.png is an astoundingly bad chart.
- streptomycin 14y ago"astoundingly"? Come on.
- sp332 14y agoAside from starting at 8% instead of 0, what else is wrong with it?
- mooism2 14y agoThe y axis increments by 8%, instead of by a round number (10% would be better).
- jarek 14y agoOkay, so the starting point is the biggest issue, making a value that should be 43.75% of another look like 25%. I would also question use of a bar chart with labelling such that only one of the three values can be read out easily. Perhaps astounding is a bit strong but between the misrepresentation and having to read two of the three values from the text following it doesn't add a whole lot.
- makmanalp 14y agoFor a comment in a community that encourages discussion, information sharing and constructive criticism, yours is an astoundingly bad comment. Why is it bad? How would they make it better? "X sucks" comments are not useful, and you can't expect everyone to know what you're thinking of.
- jonbwhite 14y agoI imagine the same would be true for laptops then, but it doesn't appear to be. I guess people are just more used to the falling prices of computers than they are for TVs.
- J0415 14y agoI think its due to the perception that TVs work for a long time without failure, and hence hold their value since they can still be used for many years to come.
- wildermuthn 14y agoActually, Goodwill sells used TVs for about $50 or less. Seriously. Go try shopping where poor people do.
- ShabbyDoo 14y agoFlat panel HDTVs? I've seen plenty of good-as-new CRT TVs there -- right beside the perfectly good VCRs, record players, tape decks, and non-surround receivers.
- JoachimSchipper 14y agoIs a flat panel HDTV worth $300 more than an "old" TV? Sensible people can answer "no" to that.
- checker 14y agoAnd the market says "yes".
- pessimizer 14y agoIn a third-floor walk-up it is.
- aqme28 14y agoThat's a nonsensical question. Some sensible people will say no, but some sensible people will say yes. If your free time revolves around television and you make too much money, what's wrong with dropping an extra $300?
- BrandonM 14y agoIf it saves $5 a month in electricity, that extra $300 pays for itself in 5 years, meaning all the other benefits (widescreen, being able to carry a 42" alone, less space consumed) come free.
- sliverstorm 14y agoIt seems to depend on where you live; I am used to Goodwills that sell most everything for a few dollars. I moved, and I went to the nearby Goodwill for a lamp. I couldn't find one for less than $20, and they were mostly broken too.
- 89a 14y agoEWWW people buy used headphones?
- jrockway 14y agoYes. The parts that touch you are trivial to clean or replace.
- steveh73 14y agoAssuming you can find somewhere that sells the parts.
- revelation 14y agoThat huge price difference could be because people _don't_ buy used headphones. Less demand means cheaper product.
- jrockway 14y agoThis is my experience with pretty much all used goods in general. Every day I see some post like, "I bought a bike computer last year and lost all the parts. It cost $250 so I'm going to sell it for $249 because of the missing parts. Any takers?" Nope. I'd take it for $30, though, if you really want to get rid of it.
- adamjernst 14y agoIt'll be interesting to see what happens when Apple's TV is released. I suspect the resale value of all other televisions will crater as everyone tries to sell their old TV (and potential used purchasers instead purchase new Apple TVs).
- raverbashing 14y agoVery interesting article And they finish up saying "The used TV market is broken" But actually I would say: "the TV market is broken" One could say the price reductions are due to less demand (computers, internet, etc), or maybe because of improving technology But really something that falls in value so fast has of course a value for the user (watching TV) but not a "market value" Tvs are (more or less) fungible, there's basically no incentive of getting the latest model and if it breaks you just get another one. So it's actually worse than the car market in some ways
- tomerv 14y agoAs someone who lives outside of the US (I live in Israel), I would very much like to buy a new 32" LCD TV for $200. Too bad it's about $400 here.
- jaems33 14y agoAmerican tax dollars benefit Israel so I suppose it evens out. (meant as a joke and not flamebait)
- GFischer 14y agoWait one or two more years :) . Here in Uruguay no-brand LCD TVs are getting to U$ 300, they were U$ 600 last year (LED TVs pushed them downwards). Branded ones are still U$ 500 and upwards. It's still surprising how expensive they are to you (I always thought Uruguay was the most expensive country on earth, with our 100% import tax and 22% VAT).
- jlongster 14y agoThe problem is that people will buy the overpriced used TV. Honestly, I sold my 4 year old 720p for $300 last fall and went out and bought a brand new 1080p for $350! I couldn't believe it. But if people will buy, the price isn't going to change.
- tomkarlo 14y agoSame here. I was able to sell a 5 year-old, 42" LCD TV with no table stand (only good for wall mounting) along with its wall bracket for $350 earlier this year. Given that there's no fee for listing on Craigslist, I just put the highest price I could think of on it and kept posting it until I had a buyer (it only took two weeks.) Granted, it was $1500 when I bought it, but 1080 LCD TVs were at a huge premium back in 2007 and this thing was just taking up space in a crate in my apartment, depreciating. My only explanation for why someone would buy that price was that they 1.) appreciated the quality of that model versus lower-priced generic new units and 2.) they would have to pay another 10% in state sales tax if they went to a store, which increases the effective discount for buying used from a private party.
- seunosewa 14y agoThe second reason sounds much more compelling.
- its_so_on 14y agoTo me, the first reason sounds more compelling. Honestly, I'd rather use a core2 era macbook pro that was top of the line then than a $350 corei3 dell laptop that is bottom of the line now.
- tomkarlo 14y agoYeah... it's worth noting that just because you can buy _some_ 42" TV for $400 or less right now, doesn't mean that TV is comparable to a TV that was $1500 and arguably the best on the market when it came out. To get comparable features in a new set you might still have to pay $600 or more.
- ShabbyDoo 14y agoA month or so ago, I shopped on Craigslist for a used 42"-ish TV. As the article states, people wanted way too much for them and didn't state specific model numbers. I ended up buying a low-end new TV with some stacked-up promotions as suggested by a Slickdeals.net commenter.
- ShabbyDoo 14y agoIt amazes me how many people will list something for sale on Craigslist without publishing obvious facts like model numbers. There's an upside if you a buyer who compares your price for the used item with the price for a new-but-superior item. However, the downside risk of wasting your time with people who walk away once learning the details of the item seems to outweigh this benefit. Perhaps the greatest downside is that people like me will determine that the person selling the item is an idiot and apply a discount factor for the risk of even dealing with them.
- acgourley 14y agoThis might hint at one reason CraigsList still exists as it does. There is powerful signaling built into how people make their listing. It conveys a lot about who the seller is and how the transaction will work.
- ShabbyDoo 14y agoSome friends who are using OkCupid say that their potential date's use of proper grammar is one of the best predictors of compatibility and that this signal is surprisingly hard to fake, especially in mail exchanges (vs. profiles which could be wordsmithed by a friend). I'd never thought about the idea that a "better" designed for-sale site where users would be lead toward creating a proper listing would actually provide worse subjective predictors.
- eli 14y agoIt is definitely possible to buy poorly listed items on Craigslist and relist them at a markup. IMHO, simply adding a picture probably adds 20%. But then of course you would have to deal with all those deals that look sketchy because they actually are sketchy.
- jaems33 14y ago"It amazes me how many people will list something for sale on Craigslist without publishing obvious facts like model numbers." Doesn't surprise me really. It's not hard to be a solid seller on Craiglist because everyone else mostly does a terrible job at it. Even something like photos for a rental are beyond some peoples capabilities.
- josefresco 14y agoDoesn't Amazon already have a marketplace for used items? I've used it in fact, works pretty great.
- mmccomb 14y agoWould bulk be a factor here? As the size of the consumable increases so does it's shipping cost and difficulty. Which in turn might imply that fewer people would buy a TV online, than say a piece of clothing or a DVD. This is turn would force consumers to overpay for their TVs, not many high street shops can compete on price. This inflated price is in turn passed on to the 2nd hand buyer when the original purcahser experiences regret for the high price they paid. Then again, I could be completely wrong.
- leeoniya 14y ago"The Human Mind Cannot Comprehend How Quickly Prices Fall" heh, i thought this immediately after reading the intro. the problem stems from the fact that the LCD market is still not at an equilibrium despite the apparent proliferation of large, flat displays. once it becomes a commodity, the prices will level off for each screen size and there will be much less variance and fluctuation in prices over time and much more predictable depreciation rates.
- icefox 14y agoAnyone know of a graph of the LCD price / sq inch over time? How fast is it falling?
- joelhaasnoot 14y agoIt's interesting - on the Dutch eBay site (Marktplaats, has a craiglist type model), there actually really is a price point /alternate economy for most types of goods. The great deals are when people don't know what they're selling, but most sellers will either have a idea of what they think it's worth (too high) or will look at other listings and come to a similar price. It especially works on items like phones which have a relatively high supply.
- otterley 14y agoTaken in the aggregate, the findings are probably true. However, some particular models can command a high resale value because they have particularly unique features. My Samsung TV, for example, is one of the few models made that has an antiglare screen. To my knowledge Samsung no longer manufactures flat-panel HD sets with antiglare screens, so I would expect to sell it at a premium.
- sixQuarks 14y agoWhy does Priceonomics posts always make it to the front page of Hacker News? The stories are interesting, but not THAT interesting. Seems like there's some gaming going on here.
- pg 14y agoThere are no signs of voting rings or other anomalies. I think the reason they get so many upvotes is that they know what HN readers like. Look at the number of comments, for example.
- sixQuarks 14y agoI guess you're right (especially considering nobody else seems to agree with me)
- ChuckMcM 14y agoI suspect it is because a lot of HN readers are arm chair economists. Economics is a fascinating system to study and analyze as that system is driven by people who are modeled as 'rational actors' but rarely act rationally on an individual basis. The Priceonomics guys bring data analysis to the mix and that pings the other thing HN readers like, facts and data.
- lowlevel 14y agoA kink in this story, is that about 6 months ago, some TV prices were discounted between $150 and $200, and 'new' prices are higher now.
- rmATinnovafy 14y agoThe mundane television set has changed. No longer is it a thing to watch some movie in it.It is now a gadget that either adds or substracts to your social standing. Just like Apple did with the i-line of gadgets. TV makers are doing it as well. Your TV doesn't have those little side-lights to add "ambiance"? You are behind. Buy a better one. It doesn't have that Symphony remote control with the little color LCD at the top? Ditto. Wait, you mean your TV is not 3D? Or that it doesn't have internet access to watch Netflix? Ditto, Ditto. That is why the TV prices are so high. They are now a status symbol. The same way people trade-up their cell new cell phones for the newest model, people trade up their new TVs. The price problem is a direct effect of this.Most people need to re-coup the cost of buying the high-end TV to buy another one.So they don't budge on the selling price. They keep it high to lower the amount of money needed to buy the other TV.As a result they create a niche market with its own social standing phenomenon.You see people bragging about paying high prices for an used TV, They might say "But its the XCVFRHTH-1234-TV with a digital remote, and dual LED Ambiance lights". So, in summary, its not that the TV prices are high. Is that people cannot afford the latest gadget, and need to re-coup their money in some way. There is a a sub market of people who cant dream of buying the TV new, but can scrounge up the money to buy it used. And so, the circle of TVs keeps on going. It does not happen to phones, because everything looks like an i-phone these days. But you can't confuse an Sony high end TV with one made my Emerson. Same with cars, tools, bycicles...
- MartinCron 14y agoWhat a relief that I haven't even noticed this status symbol pressure and that I'm perfectly happy to roll with my ancient TV from 4 years ago.
- rmATinnovafy 14y agoThe only TV I have is about 12 years old.
- cocoflunchy 14y agoI don't have a TV.
- acgourley 14y agoI've certainly noticed this myself. I always assumed it was because people overpaid originally. Paying sales tax, not buying on a deep sale, etc. Then I come along and use deal shopping tools which pick out TVs on websites that skirt local taxes.
- jonniekang 14y agoI love priceonomics detailed analysis!
- jusben1369 14y agoSo, this is really a symptom of a much more interesting effect. What happens when established markets suddenly experience dramatic change? A good example is the used car market. Post 2008 meltdown leasing and buying new dropped dramatically. The recession also convinced people to buy used rather than new. Given the normal 3 year lease by 2011 there was a dearth of used cars yet due to the recession still a strong demand for used cars. Many people began grossly overpaying for used cars relative to new cars. It's one of the factors highlighted in the rebound of this years new auto sales - buyers began connecting the dots. TV's are less of a supply and more of a price issue but it's still the same thing. A dramatic external shock hasn't flowed through the market yet. BTW, TV's make for horrible landfill so either way use that TV as long as you can.
- silentscope 14y agoSorry guys, but I smell a need for an editor. You could have explained your whole post in one paragraph. And now for downvotes...
- nostromo 14y agohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endowment_effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endowment_effect - things seem more valuable when they're yours. Regarding the two examples given (https://s3.amazonaws.com/pix-media/TV+Categories.png https://s3.amazonaws.com/pix-media/TV+Categories.png): used headphones are icky and cellphones are distorted by cell phone plans that hide their real cost.
- cheeze 14y agoIt really depends. A good pair of headphones can be had for big discounts used. For in ear headphones, you can usually buy replacement ear pads and for over ear, you can often replace the foam that goes over your ear. I would never buy a lower quality pair, but I've bought a few different high end headphones that I scored on.
- jpdoctor 14y agoThis very much applies to housing as well. The number of people whose houses are listed for more than 6 months has to be a record high.
- Domenic_S 14y agoThis is a function of a few things. Here are a couple reasons that happens: -Their mortgage is close to underwater. They have to sell at an objectively high price to get out. -They're trying to short sell under an agreement with their bank. They price it intentionally high to keep it from selling.
- jpdoctor 14y agoSure, but there is a third reason: People have a very tough time admitting a loss. And it's not like those prices are going to come back in our lifetimes (if you're on the coast).
- ken 14y agoTV model numbers are, I've heard, intentionally screwy. I have a model number that ends in "-1" which I bought from a warehouse store, and this model was only ever sold to a particular chain of warehouse stores. The original model (which you'll find if you look up reviews on the web, or on Amazon) has the same number but ending in "-0", and the only difference is that they traded its second component input for another HDMI input -- something which 99% of people, myself included, will never care about. The reason, they say, is so the big chains can advertise "Guaranteed lowest price!". Nobody else can stock exactly the same model number, so it's technically true, even though it's not uncommon for the almost-identical model to be cheaper elsewhere.
- FiddlerClamp 14y agoJust like mattresses. Each store will have its own mattress model number. In Canada it's even worse, because we'll get C or CA as suffixes for products, and sometimes even BL for bilingual - making it near impossible to find reviews online.
- liber8 14y agoThe mattress retailers have the best scam going. Nobody carries the same models [edit: or more precisely, each retailer gives each mattress a unique model name], and even the manufacturers websites don't list most of the model names or make them easily identifiable (and the manufacturer's websites certainly don't display prices). This, and the limited number of independently-owned retailers, makes the markups pretty surreal.[1] Let's just say if you're not negotiating 50% off, you're probably getting soaked. It's similar to the way car buying was 20 or 30 years ago, when nobody really knew what invoice prices were. I see a huge potential to disrupt this market. [1]I recently went mattress shopping again. During the "Memorial Day Sales Event", sticker prices (even after the "$XXX dollars off!!") were at least 10% over the MSRP displayed in the store's computer. I had no trouble negotiating 50% off the sticker price, plus tons of extras.
- larrys 14y ago"I see a huge potential to disrupt this market." Will be tough as the manufacturers are complicit in this way of doing business. As you said: "and even the manufacturers websites don't list most of the model names or make them easily identifiable"
- jisaacstone 14y agoOK so this chart really bugs me: https://s3.amazonaws.com/pix-media/TV+Categories.png https://s3.amazonaws.com/pix-media/TV+Categories.png Why is the bottom line 8%? and why are the y-axis lines ate 8% intervals? No reason I can see. Is it not obvious that starting at 0 and using intervals of 5 or 10 makes it easier for people to grasp the relevant information clearly? </rant>
- steve-howard 14y agoBecause it intentionally overstates their point?
- mtigas 14y agoIt's still a regular linearly-scaled chart, so I don't think it's too confusing. Funny enough, I plugged this into Google Docs to see if I could re-scale to give you a comparison of the given chart vs a 0-based, 5-unit-interval chart and it looks like that's actually what they used to generate the chart. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ag2TNlAslc4GdFdDaWtlNVpZajRWR0Z0LTRMN2ZYUEE https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ag2TNlAslc4GdFd... Apparently the automatic scaling gives you the 8-based scale you see in their post. (And apparently you can't manually re-scale a Google Docs chart.) Using "stack" mode (I don't actually know what this option does for a single-series chart like this) gives you a 0-based, 10-unit-interval chart. (Again, not sure if you can adjust this to any other unit-scale.) Slightly different scale, but I don't think it's a significant difference (though the "television" portion does appear slightly smaller in the automatic scale). Charts like these are always susceptible to scale-skew and perception, and even simple charts (like this) can be debated on those subjective measures.
- TwoBit 14y agoWhenever I see graphs like that, I write the page off as being advertising rather than science.
- lifeisstillgood 14y agoIsn't this the equivalent of buying an expensive frame for a cheap painting? We buy expensive TVs to look at because the stuff on the TV channel is just rubbish. "of course Simon Cowell's insights into modern pop industry are worth watching Pop Idols got American Talent for - I mean I paid more for that TV than my car..."
- greedo 14y agoI'd love to see priceonomics tackle the Apple resale effect. I love it because it makes upgrading more affordable, but it seems a bit screwy at times.
- FiddlerClamp 14y agoI'm surprised they didn't also cover PCs. That's another area in classified ads where people can't believe that prices have already dropped for your PC once you have paid for it and put it in the trunk. Those who are unclear about brand/model names (and I see a lot of those, especially with lesser Android tablets) provide two benefits: 1) It makes it easier for those of us in the know to write detailed ads and sell our stuff, and 2) It acts as a filter when searching for TVs, etc. I'd rather buy a gadget from someone who knows the specs than someone who just posts "TV for sale."
- icefox 14y agoFor the last half a decade I have been buying mac hardware. Even when I run linux on it I know that I can at any time get rid of it on the used market and get an insane price back. Compared to any PC, even when I would hand build them the value drop just to my house was always more than I imagined. Last year I was looking to maybe build a PC, looking on craigslist almost every listing was more expensive than if I bought the parts from newegg brand new.
- devmach 14y agoIrrelevant fun fact : In germany, if you have tv you have to pay yearly ~271$ as a tax ( and it doesn't matter if it's 50000$ super hd 3d or ~30$ old crt )
- DigitalSea 14y agoUsed refrigerator and washing machine prices are quite high as well.
- rograndom 14y agoI'm not sure if it's unique to my area, but I've found the same issue with computers on CL. I work with quite a few non-profits and they're always looking for newer computers to replace their aging or outright broken P3 era machines running XP or even 98. I have a few RSS feeds for about a 35 mile radius and 95% of the listing are some crap machine with a Celeron-D or Sempron. "Top of the line! Bought at Walmart 4 years ago for $800, selling for $500 FIRM. Has blue screen on startup, but it should be a simple fix." Every 5-6 months or so something worthwhile like a P4 w/ HT or a C2D with a dead HD will show up for $30-50.