5 ms·

What happened is there are no real "budget" cars anymore. Mandatory safety, engine, emission, backup cameras (yes, they're mandatory) has steadily driven the ba

by codexb 2y ago

What happened is there are no real "budget" cars anymore. Mandatory safety, engine, emission, backup cameras (yes, they're mandatory) has steadily driven the base price of a car so high that the added cost of creature comforts doesn't actually increase the price of a car that much relative to the total price. Why would someone spend spend $40k on a bare bones car when they could get a well-equipped car for $45k? That's basically where we're at. So, basically all cars, "budget" or luxury, need to have all the major creature comforts.

cherioo 2y ago
But why is that somebody spending even 40k on a barebone car? How is it that BYD and a bunch of chinese manufacturers able to produce ~10k car but nobody else?
- asadotzler 2y ago
  That same BYD is $30-40K in Australia. Governments subsidize. The US will subsidize around $7-10K of your US made EV. China does that too.
asadotzler 2y ago
Tell us you haven't been in a contemporary Corolla without telling us you haven't been in a Corolla recently.
- 10u152 2y ago
  A corolla isn't a budget car. The cheapest configurable Corolla here (Australia) is $35,857. More than 50% of the median yearly wage ($65000) To me that's not a budget car. The closest thing would be a Kia Picanto for about $18500
Dylan16807 2y ago
I'm not really seeing why safety or emissions rules drive up the price of a car? Backup camera sure that's an extra $200.
- codexb 2y ago
  Cars require hundreds to thousands of microchips these days. Airbags require sensors and circuits. Emission systems require expensive sensors, and engines require complex electronic and mechanical real-time tuning systems to constantly monitor and adjust fuel usage to limit emissions and meet minimum mpg requirements. Automatic transmissions are now extremely complex, including 8 to 10 gears or using CVT to achieve the best fuel efficiency. Backup cameras need a monitor, and it costs more than $200. And now that you must put a monitor in the car, you can't just have it be useless except for a backup camera, so now you have to add a bunch of software features. Meeting emissions requirements means making cars much lighter. This means more expensive composites and materials. This means increased manufacturing and engineering costs to meet structural requirements while designing cars with the least amount of material. I don't think you realize how simple cars used to be. Engines were extremely simple and purely mechanical, essentially 50 year old technology. Transmissions were simpler, either manual transmissions or ATS with only a handful of gears. Engines and cars were made entirely of cheap steel. You had no expensive screens, no expensive sensors or electronics. You had no expensive research on structural design and materials science. You had no expensive emissions systems. You could fix nearly everything in the car with hand tools.
  - Dylan16807 2y ago
    As far as airbags, my assumption was that you're going to have at least 2 no matter what, and I don't think more than 2 is mandatory. The big differences to engine and transmission are interesting, I believe you that it's a big difference but I'm not sure how to evaluate specific numbers for it. Building the entire car with more expensive structure and paneling sounds like a pretty bad thing to effectively require, especially when most losses are aerodynamic. For backup cameras I was including the monitor in that price. You can buy kits for under $50, so I don't think $200 is unrealistic for something built in. I will say that having a thousand microchips rather than a dozen is probably because it's cheaper that way.

by codexb 2y ago

cherioo 2y ago

But why is that somebody spending even 40k on a barebone car? How is it that BYD and a bunch of chinese manufacturers able to produce ~10k car but nobody else?

asadotzler 2y ago
That same BYD is $30-40K in Australia. Governments subsidize. The US will subsidize around $7-10K of your US made EV. China does that too.

asadotzler 2y ago

Tell us you haven't been in a contemporary Corolla without telling us you haven't been in a Corolla recently.

10u152 2y ago
A corolla isn't a budget car. The cheapest configurable Corolla here (Australia) is $35,857. More than 50% of the median yearly wage ($65000) To me that's not a budget car. The closest thing would be a Kia Picanto for about $18500

Dylan16807 2y ago

I'm not really seeing why safety or emissions rules drive up the price of a car? Backup camera sure that's an extra $200.

codexb 2y ago
Cars require hundreds to thousands of microchips these days. Airbags require sensors and circuits. Emission systems require expensive sensors, and engines require complex electronic and mechanical real-time tuning systems to constantly monitor and adjust fuel usage to limit emissions and meet minimum mpg requirements. Automatic transmissions are now extremely complex, including 8 to 10 gears or using CVT to achieve the best fuel efficiency. Backup cameras need a monitor, and it costs more than $200. And now that you must put a monitor in the car, you can't just have it be useless except for a backup camera, so now you have to add a bunch of software features. Meeting emissions requirements means making cars much lighter. This means more expensive composites and materials. This means increased manufacturing and engineering costs to meet structural requirements while designing cars with the least amount of material. I don't think you realize how simple cars used to be. Engines were extremely simple and purely mechanical, essentially 50 year old technology. Transmissions were simpler, either manual transmissions or ATS with only a handful of gears. Engines and cars were made entirely of cheap steel. You had no expensive screens, no expensive sensors or electronics. You had no expensive research on structural design and materials science. You had no expensive emissions systems. You could fix nearly everything in the car with hand tools.
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  As far as airbags, my assumption was that you're going to have at least 2 no matter what, and I don't think more than 2 is mandatory. The big differences to engine and transmission are interesting, I believe you that it's a big difference but I'm not sure how to evaluate specific numbers for it. Building the entire car with more expensive structure and paneling sounds like a pretty bad thing to effectively require, especially when most losses are aerodynamic. For backup cameras I was including the monitor in that price. You can buy kits for under $50, so I don't think $200 is unrealistic for something built in. I will say that having a thousand microchips rather than a dozen is probably because it's cheaper that way.