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I wonder how much of those frustrations has to do with Japanese market share of car industry; I think the touchscreen infotainment is not there because car manu

I wonder how much of those frustrations has to do with Japanese market share of car industry; I think the touchscreen infotainment is not there because car manufacturers value it as integral and central part of car experience but simply because otherwise their product loses against one of Japanese brands. Japanese road network is a disorganized weighted node graph and absolutely not a grid, and a bulletproof navigation unit has been a must for a car in Japan since its inception around 1990. It is also preferred that they are 2DIN compatible so it can be later upgraded. AFAIK, those are not high priority checkbox items elsewhere, but all cars nevertheless follow the Japanese manufacturer layout because of manufacturers' collective dominance. Cars before 2DIN navigation units seem to have had 1DIN AM/FM radio units with radio buttons[1], by the way. That dominance leaves a 4:3 8" diagonal hole in immediate view of driver for all cars globally that must be filled with something of value. That doesn't have to be a touchscreen but usually are, and it ends up being a navigation-audio combo unit, and it's outsourced to the lowest bidder. It is not the primary interaction point for cars by overwhelming global demands or principles of automotive product design. That leads to jarring subpar experience that appear to be but are perhaps not intended to be part of core UX of the whole car. I think. 1: https://www.alamy.com/1956-mercedes-benz-190-sl-steering-wheel-and-dashboard-image446861076.html https://www.alamy.com/1956-mercedes-benz-190-sl-steering-whe...

throw0101c 3y ago
> That doesn't have to be a touchscreen but usually are […] With back up cameras being mandated in the US (and other jurisdictions?): * https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/02/backup-cameras-now-required-in-new-cars-in-the-us.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/02/backup-cameras-now-required-... There needs to be a screen: I'm not sure what the incremental cost is of it being touch-sensitive. And I think a lot of designers (or cost cutters) may have figured that since they have to have software anyway, it may easier/cheaper to deal with software buttons than with moving parts like physical buttons and dials.
- toast0 3y ago
  I'm pretty sure a touchscreen is cheaper than buttons, or at least awful close. You'll still get some buttons, unless the car maker really hates you, and hopefully something to turn for volume control (which may even work most of the time, if you're lucky).
  - jajko 3y ago
    Touchscreen is such a stupid low value move for driver. Physical knobs are safer in many ways, last much much more, I don't need to lose contact with whats happening in front of the car to manage these, just muscle memory. BMW has nice big physical knob (turn&press) to control all menus, much better than hunting on flat glossy screen with fingers. Some stuff can be managed from steering wheel, but instead of putting there things like AC there are voice controls, while we all know very well this increases danger on the roads and calls shouldn't be made while driving. That being said, I choose (used) cars based on many metrics, and this is just one of them and not the most important one. So its sort of self-inflicted move to worse.
    - throw0101c 3y ago
      > Physical knobs are safer in many ways, last much much more, I don't need to lose contact with whats happening in front of the car to manage these, just muscle memory. None of which some up on a spreadsheet in the manufacturer's accounting department. Similarly: open concept offices with hot desking lowers the amount of rent (per employee) that shows up on an expense report, but the productivity drop of open offices does not.
    - numpad0 3y ago
      I used to agree, but the point I made in GP is that the touchscreen front and center could be a requirement, with what to do with one being open to local market interpretation. IF that's the case, and that's one big if, debating touchscreen vs buttons might not be meaningful, because touchscreen MIGHT be a requirement that cannot be removed. With un-eliminable touchscreen, buttons becomes just added cost, rather than being a resilt of cost calculations between all-touch vs all-buttons.
  - 3y ago
- JohnFen 3y ago
  Sure, there needs to be a screen, but it doesn't have to do anything more than be the monitor for the backup camera.
presentation 3y ago
I don't own my own car here, but whenever I ride taxis or rent cars in Japan I noticed that they almost all appear to have aftermarket infotainment units. This makes sense now!
eloisant 3y ago
Honestly I would prefer to have a 2DIN hole where I can put whatever infotainment I want, instead of being stuck with whatever the car maker included, and that I can change without changing my car.
- numpad0 3y ago
  Yeah, it can't get pro-consumer and pro-right-to-repair than that. Disappointment with lackluster stock infotainment followed by disappointment in the move away from repairability felt a bit hypocritical to me knowing that world. 2DIN holes are fine!
Xixi 3y ago
I'm not quite sure what you mean by saying that the Japanese road network is not a grid. In terms of actual layout, it's quite grid-like. I would even say it's usually much closer to a nicely laid-out grid than the mess any European city is. What Japan lacks are addresses that can be found easily without using a map. Apart from Kyoto, roads in Japanese cities don't have names (or number), so addresses within cities are not "{number} {name of street}". Cities are cut in areas smaller and smaller all the way down to a block. The last number will be the house on that block. So addresses within cities are "{name of area} {sub-area number} {block number} {house number}", with some variations from city to city. An address might be "Nantokacho 11-16-8", which means the 8th house around the 16th block of the 11th sub-area of the Nantoka area. Good luck figuring that out without a map!
- solardev 3y ago
  That's really cool! I didn't realize that. Thanks for explaining. Reminds me the Township & Range system in the US, which is still used in public land management: https://web.gccaz.edu/~lynrw95071/Township%20Range%20Explanation.html https://web.gccaz.edu/~lynrw95071/Township%20Range%20Explana...
ryandrake 3y ago
Don't Japanese people have smartphones or tablets with navigation on them that they can use? I'd rather cars just have a place I can mount my own device, rather than include any kind of screen whatsoever with crappy un-updated, un-maintained software.
- astrange 3y ago
  Cars can have better GPS reception, which is important when you're trying to drive in an urban area with a lot of buildings. Phones are bad at accuracy there. (CarPlay can provide car GPS to the phone though.)
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - katbyte 3y ago
    My iPhone 12 has much better reception then my 22 Tacoma even when tossed on the passenger seat. Like waaaaaay better and more accurate
    - withinboredom 3y ago
      It just pretends to be more accurate by using AI. A car tends to be more raw, which is what you want when navigating at speed. As someone who used to help out with Waze maps, raw GPS tracks from phones can be WAAAY off from actual roads and other GPS tracks. Your phone looks for the most likely road for you to be on and snaps you to that road. Your car does a similar thing but has much higher GPS resolution than your phone so it is more likely to be right.
      - WesolyKubeczek 3y ago
        Could we please for once stop using the term "AI" when we mean "heuristics"?
        3y ago

throw0101c 3y ago

> That doesn't have to be a touchscreen but usually are […] With back up cameras being mandated in the US (and other jurisdictions?): * https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/02/backup-cameras-now-required-in-new-cars-in-the-us.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/02/backup-cameras-now-required-... There needs to be a screen: I'm not sure what the incremental cost is of it being touch-sensitive. And I think a lot of designers (or cost cutters) may have figured that since they have to have software anyway, it may easier/cheaper to deal with software buttons than with moving parts like physical buttons and dials.

toast0 3y ago
I'm pretty sure a touchscreen is cheaper than buttons, or at least awful close. You'll still get some buttons, unless the car maker really hates you, and hopefully something to turn for volume control (which may even work most of the time, if you're lucky).
- jajko 3y ago
  Touchscreen is such a stupid low value move for driver. Physical knobs are safer in many ways, last much much more, I don't need to lose contact with whats happening in front of the car to manage these, just muscle memory. BMW has nice big physical knob (turn&press) to control all menus, much better than hunting on flat glossy screen with fingers. Some stuff can be managed from steering wheel, but instead of putting there things like AC there are voice controls, while we all know very well this increases danger on the roads and calls shouldn't be made while driving. That being said, I choose (used) cars based on many metrics, and this is just one of them and not the most important one. So its sort of self-inflicted move to worse.
  - throw0101c 3y ago
    > Physical knobs are safer in many ways, last much much more, I don't need to lose contact with whats happening in front of the car to manage these, just muscle memory. None of which some up on a spreadsheet in the manufacturer's accounting department. Similarly: open concept offices with hot desking lowers the amount of rent (per employee) that shows up on an expense report, but the productivity drop of open offices does not.
  - numpad0 3y ago
    I used to agree, but the point I made in GP is that the touchscreen front and center could be a requirement, with what to do with one being open to local market interpretation. IF that's the case, and that's one big if, debating touchscreen vs buttons might not be meaningful, because touchscreen MIGHT be a requirement that cannot be removed. With un-eliminable touchscreen, buttons becomes just added cost, rather than being a resilt of cost calculations between all-touch vs all-buttons.
- 3y ago
JohnFen 3y ago
Sure, there needs to be a screen, but it doesn't have to do anything more than be the monitor for the backup camera.

presentation 3y ago

I don't own my own car here, but whenever I ride taxis or rent cars in Japan I noticed that they almost all appear to have aftermarket infotainment units. This makes sense now!

eloisant 3y ago

Honestly I would prefer to have a 2DIN hole where I can put whatever infotainment I want, instead of being stuck with whatever the car maker included, and that I can change without changing my car.

numpad0 3y ago
Yeah, it can't get pro-consumer and pro-right-to-repair than that. Disappointment with lackluster stock infotainment followed by disappointment in the move away from repairability felt a bit hypocritical to me knowing that world. 2DIN holes are fine!

Xixi 3y ago

I'm not quite sure what you mean by saying that the Japanese road network is not a grid. In terms of actual layout, it's quite grid-like. I would even say it's usually much closer to a nicely laid-out grid than the mess any European city is. What Japan lacks are addresses that can be found easily without using a map. Apart from Kyoto, roads in Japanese cities don't have names (or number), so addresses within cities are not "{number} {name of street}". Cities are cut in areas smaller and smaller all the way down to a block. The last number will be the house on that block. So addresses within cities are "{name of area} {sub-area number} {block number} {house number}", with some variations from city to city. An address might be "Nantokacho 11-16-8", which means the 8th house around the 16th block of the 11th sub-area of the Nantoka area. Good luck figuring that out without a map!

solardev 3y ago
That's really cool! I didn't realize that. Thanks for explaining. Reminds me the Township & Range system in the US, which is still used in public land management: https://web.gccaz.edu/~lynrw95071/Township%20Range%20Explanation.html https://web.gccaz.edu/~lynrw95071/Township%20Range%20Explana...

ryandrake 3y ago

Don't Japanese people have smartphones or tablets with navigation on them that they can use? I'd rather cars just have a place I can mount my own device, rather than include any kind of screen whatsoever with crappy un-updated, un-maintained software.

astrange 3y ago
Cars can have better GPS reception, which is important when you're trying to drive in an urban area with a lot of buildings. Phones are bad at accuracy there. (CarPlay can provide car GPS to the phone though.)
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- katbyte 3y ago
  My iPhone 12 has much better reception then my 22 Tacoma even when tossed on the passenger seat. Like waaaaaay better and more accurate
  - withinboredom 3y ago
    It just pretends to be more accurate by using AI. A car tends to be more raw, which is what you want when navigating at speed. As someone who used to help out with Waze maps, raw GPS tracks from phones can be WAAAY off from actual roads and other GPS tracks. Your phone looks for the most likely road for you to be on and snaps you to that road. Your car does a similar thing but has much higher GPS resolution than your phone so it is more likely to be right.
    - WesolyKubeczek 3y ago
      Could we please for once stop using the term "AI" when we mean "heuristics"?
      - 3y ago