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Something that stuck out to me in the article: > There used to be a big difference in driving characteristics and technology between premium and budget brands.

Something that stuck out to me in the article: > There used to be a big difference in driving characteristics and technology between premium and budget brands. Compared to a Volkswagen, a BMW used to have a more powerful engine, better handling, and comfort features like seat-heating and cruise control. However, a Volkswagen Golf now has similar tech as a BMW and with the transition to EVs, drivetrains and handling won't be the same differentiator as before. The thing is: that didn't used to be that way. You can blame it on the transition to EVs, but part of that transition seems to be that a bunch of manufacturers decided not to build their own platforms, motors, etc and are just licensing from other manufacturers*. The article's correct to note that flattens a lot of the value proposition of any given manufacturer, and if that's forcing them to lean in a lot on the software, that's a weird position for an automotive manufacturer, because that's never been anyone in the industry's strong suite - there's a reason 80% of drivers won't buy a car without CarPlay. It's also notable that the brands who do seem to be going in on CarPlay are those that still make a point of building their own engines and platforms - Aston, Porsche, and even Polestar tries to differentiate itself there. * to be clear, this was happening before EVs, too - BMW put out a car that shared a platform with a Toyota, in a move that should've caused a plague of locust to descend on Munich if God existed and had a driver's license, and Stellantis put a Lancia badge on a Chrysler a couple years back.

ajmurmann 3y ago
> BMW put out a car that shared a platform with a Toyota, in a move that should've caused a plague of locust to descend on Munich if God existed and had a driver's license Why is this bad on BMW? Doesn't Toyota make the most reliable cars?
- srockets 3y ago
  The BMW Z4 2018 and later models shares platform with the Toyota Supra 2019 and later. The platform, at least according to both brands marketing, was co-developed, and it is manufactured in Austria by a 3rd party that also built cars for other brands. And no, Toyota doesn't make the most reliable cars. It might have been true for some period of time, but isn't true for every model and every year (even Corolla, often suggested as a very reliable sedan, has some versions that are in fact infamous for their tendency for oil sludge buildup that result in engine failures).
- roughly 3y ago
  It’s nothing to do with the reliability. It’d be like finding out that Apple had shipped a laptop based on Dell internals - whatever the results, it’d indicate something tectonic had happened in Cupertino. It’s just not something the company would have even considered a decade or so ago.
m463 3y ago
I think it is just global manufacturing. Plus a little bit of feature parity. It seems maybe tesla is the one fighting it. I think the original model S used steering wheel stalks from mercedes? Now they do so many things themselves (or don't do in case of stalks), to the point of making their own chips for the machine learning stuff.
- roughly 3y ago
  Re: Tesla - at least in the early days, they did the same thing a lot of boutique manufacturers did: https://www.theautopian.com/how-tesla-engineers-saved-millions-on-the-model-s-by-flipping-parts-upside-down/ https://www.theautopian.com/how-tesla-engineers-saved-millio... Re: "global manufacturing" - yeah, but there's also a choice being made there. I own an older BMW, and there's been a very clear shift away from what was once a differentiated product to a kind of blah middle-object, which is almost certainly in pursuit of a larger market share, but again, that's a choice. I could tell you what the value prop of a BMW made between 1975 and 2005 was, I can't really tell you what it is now, and that's a choice it seems like a lot of manufacturers are making.
  - eslaught 3y ago
    > value prop of a BMW made between 1975 and 2005 I'd be curious for someone to explain what this is, and what happened in 2005 that changed this.
    - roughly 3y ago
      For a very long time, BMW's cars were intentionally driver-centric - if you got a BMW, you were getting a car that was luxurious and well built, sure, but more than that, was just sublime to drive in a way the spec sheets don't capture. The handling, steering, suspension feel, engine and transmission, everything combined for something that was engaging and genuinely fun to drive, but didn't sacrifice actual daily usability. That was their sales pitch: Want luxury? Grab a Benz. Care about the actual driving experience? Here's your car. I really don't know what happened after 2005, and it wasn't overnight, but the general driving experience of the cars has declined every generation since then - steering's gotten a bit more numb, suspension's not quite as communicative, engine noises are more muffled, and they just seemed to lose the thread over the years. I'm not sure if some of it was leaning into technology at the expense of the driving experience, but aside from the one or two models per generation that still have some of the old soul, they really don't seem to know what their sales pitch is anymore.
codexb 3y ago
What happened is there are no real "budget" cars anymore. Mandatory safety, engine, emission, backup cameras (yes, they're mandatory) has steadily driven the base price of a car so high that the added cost of creature comforts doesn't actually increase the price of a car that much relative to the total price. Why would someone spend spend $40k on a bare bones car when they could get a well-equipped car for $45k? That's basically where we're at. So, basically all cars, "budget" or luxury, need to have all the major creature comforts.
- cherioo 3y ago
  But why is that somebody spending even 40k on a barebone car? How is it that BYD and a bunch of chinese manufacturers able to produce ~10k car but nobody else?
  - asadotzler 3y ago
    That same BYD is $30-40K in Australia. Governments subsidize. The US will subsidize around $7-10K of your US made EV. China does that too.
- asadotzler 3y ago
  Tell us you haven't been in a contemporary Corolla without telling us you haven't been in a Corolla recently.
  - 10u152 3y ago
    A corolla isn't a budget car. The cheapest configurable Corolla here (Australia) is $35,857. More than 50% of the median yearly wage ($65000) To me that's not a budget car. The closest thing would be a Kia Picanto for about $18500
- Dylan16807 3y ago
  I'm not really seeing why safety or emissions rules drive up the price of a car? Backup camera sure that's an extra $200.

ajmurmann 3y ago

> BMW put out a car that shared a platform with a Toyota, in a move that should've caused a plague of locust to descend on Munich if God existed and had a driver's license Why is this bad on BMW? Doesn't Toyota make the most reliable cars?

srockets 3y ago
The BMW Z4 2018 and later models shares platform with the Toyota Supra 2019 and later. The platform, at least according to both brands marketing, was co-developed, and it is manufactured in Austria by a 3rd party that also built cars for other brands. And no, Toyota doesn't make the most reliable cars. It might have been true for some period of time, but isn't true for every model and every year (even Corolla, often suggested as a very reliable sedan, has some versions that are in fact infamous for their tendency for oil sludge buildup that result in engine failures).
roughly 3y ago
It’s nothing to do with the reliability. It’d be like finding out that Apple had shipped a laptop based on Dell internals - whatever the results, it’d indicate something tectonic had happened in Cupertino. It’s just not something the company would have even considered a decade or so ago.

m463 3y ago

I think it is just global manufacturing. Plus a little bit of feature parity. It seems maybe tesla is the one fighting it. I think the original model S used steering wheel stalks from mercedes? Now they do so many things themselves (or don't do in case of stalks), to the point of making their own chips for the machine learning stuff.

roughly 3y ago
Re: Tesla - at least in the early days, they did the same thing a lot of boutique manufacturers did: https://www.theautopian.com/how-tesla-engineers-saved-millions-on-the-model-s-by-flipping-parts-upside-down/ https://www.theautopian.com/how-tesla-engineers-saved-millio... Re: "global manufacturing" - yeah, but there's also a choice being made there. I own an older BMW, and there's been a very clear shift away from what was once a differentiated product to a kind of blah middle-object, which is almost certainly in pursuit of a larger market share, but again, that's a choice. I could tell you what the value prop of a BMW made between 1975 and 2005 was, I can't really tell you what it is now, and that's a choice it seems like a lot of manufacturers are making.
- eslaught 3y ago
  > value prop of a BMW made between 1975 and 2005 I'd be curious for someone to explain what this is, and what happened in 2005 that changed this.
  - roughly 3y ago
    For a very long time, BMW's cars were intentionally driver-centric - if you got a BMW, you were getting a car that was luxurious and well built, sure, but more than that, was just sublime to drive in a way the spec sheets don't capture. The handling, steering, suspension feel, engine and transmission, everything combined for something that was engaging and genuinely fun to drive, but didn't sacrifice actual daily usability. That was their sales pitch: Want luxury? Grab a Benz. Care about the actual driving experience? Here's your car. I really don't know what happened after 2005, and it wasn't overnight, but the general driving experience of the cars has declined every generation since then - steering's gotten a bit more numb, suspension's not quite as communicative, engine noises are more muffled, and they just seemed to lose the thread over the years. I'm not sure if some of it was leaning into technology at the expense of the driving experience, but aside from the one or two models per generation that still have some of the old soul, they really don't seem to know what their sales pitch is anymore.

codexb 3y ago

What happened is there are no real "budget" cars anymore. Mandatory safety, engine, emission, backup cameras (yes, they're mandatory) has steadily driven the base price of a car so high that the added cost of creature comforts doesn't actually increase the price of a car that much relative to the total price. Why would someone spend spend $40k on a bare bones car when they could get a well-equipped car for $45k? That's basically where we're at. So, basically all cars, "budget" or luxury, need to have all the major creature comforts.

cherioo 3y ago
But why is that somebody spending even 40k on a barebone car? How is it that BYD and a bunch of chinese manufacturers able to produce ~10k car but nobody else?
- asadotzler 3y ago
  That same BYD is $30-40K in Australia. Governments subsidize. The US will subsidize around $7-10K of your US made EV. China does that too.
asadotzler 3y ago
Tell us you haven't been in a contemporary Corolla without telling us you haven't been in a Corolla recently.
- 10u152 3y ago
  A corolla isn't a budget car. The cheapest configurable Corolla here (Australia) is $35,857. More than 50% of the median yearly wage ($65000) To me that's not a budget car. The closest thing would be a Kia Picanto for about $18500
Dylan16807 3y ago
I'm not really seeing why safety or emissions rules drive up the price of a car? Backup camera sure that's an extra $200.