3 ms·

I can't speak for the grandparent, but one obvious thing is of course that being knighted seems to bring with it "more" respect from people, automatically (bein

by unwind 14y ago

I can't speak for the grandparent, but one obvious thing is of course that being knighted seems to bring with it "more" respect from people, automatically (being addressed as Sir, for instance). This is not very compatible with the idea that all humans have equal value, it's rather the opposite. It's very much a "class society" thing, at least in some respects. Note: I'm not saying I oppose, I'm trying to explain what could be dubious about the concept.

seanmcdirmid 14y ago
This titling/tradition thing is really what distinguishes the old world (England) from the new world (America); we got rid of that baggage when we got off the Mayflower. But Ives deserved this if anyone did, congrats to him! In America, all we can offer him is some hero worship.
- Mvandenbergh 14y ago
  Titles didn't disappear from the US until the revolution, hundreds of years after the Mayflower landed.
- astrec 14y ago
  Or the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the Presidential Citizens Medal, the Congressional Gold Medal, the Congressional Silver Medal... etc.
FuzzyDunlop 14y ago
I'm going to play devil's advocate with this one. The title is no different to becoming a Doctor after getting a PhD. Here, you become a Sir after getting a knighthood. It could be said that the PhD title is equally dubious as it also automatically commands more respect. The only difference is they both come before the name and not after (as with MBEs, OBEs, academic qualifications like BSc (Hons), etc.) But anyway, isn't that the purpose of a title?
- dodo53 14y ago
  I think the dubiousness comes from the history - it's a way of granting commoners a part in the aristocracy, somewhere below the rank of the existing nobility and clergy.
- gaius 14y ago
  Indeed. One who is against knighting must also be against honorary doctorates, for example.
kennu 14y ago
On the other hand, nobody is enforcing you to address knights as "Sir", so no freedom is taken away from you. I know many doctors but rarely address them as "Dr"..
arethuza 14y ago
'It's very much a "class society" thing' Given that knighthoods are usually handed out based on merit I think that's pretty much the opposite of the UK class system (which is not based primarily on wealth and therefore doesn't have an implicit link to merit).
- sambeau 14y ago
  Cough. Splutter. While the lower orders of knights are generally given out on merit the higher orders are not. At least as far as I'm concerned. The UK Class System is inherently based on a pecking order and the top of the pecking chain is kept for those who are more anointed than useful. Take a look at this list. It is two orders higher than most Knights (and therefore two orders more special). Are they two orders more deserving? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Victorian_Order http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Victorian_Order
  - arethuza 14y ago
    I guess my comment (note the "mostly") was based on the assumption that more of the bog standard knighthoods are handed out rather than the fancy ones.
- excuse-me 14y ago
  That's the problem - it's mostly a "jobs for the boys" Almost all the civil service above a certain rank get knighted same with the armed forces and retired politicians. They throw in a few show biz celebs and the occasional worker. It would probably better if the system was a sort of "living blue plaque". There are people who have genuinely made the country a better place, either in business, arts, science etc - they should get recognition above those who simply became a permanent secretary.
- tomjakubowski 14y ago
  Wealth implies merit? Have you been asleep the past three or four years?
ticks 14y ago
I find the "Sir" part to be the most interesting... you get a hint of how subserviently someone views the world by their use of "Sir" when describing a knight. That said, I like the tradition. It's good to reward people for hard work, especially for the non-celebrities who rarely see the limelight.
mibbitier 14y ago
> "all humans have equal value" That's because they don't. Pretending all humans have equal value is insane, and stupid. This is why we have pass rates of 97%+ in school exams. Because of loonies who refuse to acknowledge that people are different, and have different strengths and weaknesses.
- why-el 14y ago
  I think parent is referring to the human value, i.e. the value of being human.

by unwind 14y ago

seanmcdirmid 14y ago

This titling/tradition thing is really what distinguishes the old world (England) from the new world (America); we got rid of that baggage when we got off the Mayflower. But Ives deserved this if anyone did, congrats to him! In America, all we can offer him is some hero worship.

Mvandenbergh 14y ago
Titles didn't disappear from the US until the revolution, hundreds of years after the Mayflower landed.
astrec 14y ago
Or the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the Presidential Citizens Medal, the Congressional Gold Medal, the Congressional Silver Medal... etc.

FuzzyDunlop 14y ago

I'm going to play devil's advocate with this one. The title is no different to becoming a Doctor after getting a PhD. Here, you become a Sir after getting a knighthood. It could be said that the PhD title is equally dubious as it also automatically commands more respect. The only difference is they both come before the name and not after (as with MBEs, OBEs, academic qualifications like BSc (Hons), etc.) But anyway, isn't that the purpose of a title?

dodo53 14y ago
I think the dubiousness comes from the history - it's a way of granting commoners a part in the aristocracy, somewhere below the rank of the existing nobility and clergy.
gaius 14y ago
Indeed. One who is against knighting must also be against honorary doctorates, for example.

kennu 14y ago

On the other hand, nobody is enforcing you to address knights as "Sir", so no freedom is taken away from you. I know many doctors but rarely address them as "Dr"..

arethuza 14y ago

'It's very much a "class society" thing' Given that knighthoods are usually handed out based on merit I think that's pretty much the opposite of the UK class system (which is not based primarily on wealth and therefore doesn't have an implicit link to merit).

sambeau 14y ago
Cough. Splutter. While the lower orders of knights are generally given out on merit the higher orders are not. At least as far as I'm concerned. The UK Class System is inherently based on a pecking order and the top of the pecking chain is kept for those who are more anointed than useful. Take a look at this list. It is two orders higher than most Knights (and therefore two orders more special). Are they two orders more deserving? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Victorian_Order http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Victorian_Order
- arethuza 14y ago
  I guess my comment (note the "mostly") was based on the assumption that more of the bog standard knighthoods are handed out rather than the fancy ones.
excuse-me 14y ago
That's the problem - it's mostly a "jobs for the boys" Almost all the civil service above a certain rank get knighted same with the armed forces and retired politicians. They throw in a few show biz celebs and the occasional worker. It would probably better if the system was a sort of "living blue plaque". There are people who have genuinely made the country a better place, either in business, arts, science etc - they should get recognition above those who simply became a permanent secretary.
tomjakubowski 14y ago
Wealth implies merit? Have you been asleep the past three or four years?

ticks 14y ago

I find the "Sir" part to be the most interesting... you get a hint of how subserviently someone views the world by their use of "Sir" when describing a knight. That said, I like the tradition. It's good to reward people for hard work, especially for the non-celebrities who rarely see the limelight.

mibbitier 14y ago

> "all humans have equal value" That's because they don't. Pretending all humans have equal value is insane, and stupid. This is why we have pass rates of 97%+ in school exams. Because of loonies who refuse to acknowledge that people are different, and have different strengths and weaknesses.

why-el 14y ago
I think parent is referring to the human value, i.e. the value of being human.