3 ms·

> I would really love to see Mexico become a rich country with a functional and less-corrupt government/military/law enforcement. That seems insurmountable with

> I would really love to see Mexico become a rich country with a functional and less-corrupt government/military/law enforcement. That seems insurmountable within a generation, though. Amen to that. That will never happen as long as we continue The War on Drugs™ -- and that appears to be an impossible habit to kick.

runjake 3y ago
The War on Drugs is a failed strategy, but I don't know of another way to tackle the problem of drugs and geography, WRT the US. Decriminalizing hard drugs has been a failed experiment in Oregon, where hard drug use shot up drastically.
- GenerWork 3y ago
  >Decriminalizing hard drugs has been a failed experiment in Oregon, where hard drug use shot up drastically. Is the problem the increased usage, or is it the secondary effects (more homelessness, etc)?
  - runjake 3y ago
    I think both, but increased usage + new addictions were specifically cited by the legislation[1] and government officials. The uptick in prevalence of homeless people in the suburban and urban areas is startling though. 1. https://olis.oregonlegislature.gov/liz/2024R1/Measures/Overview/HB4002 https://olis.oregonlegislature.gov/liz/2024R1/Measures/Overv...
  - UncleOxidant 3y ago
    Oregonian here. Both, I think. However homelessness increased everywhere over the same period the legalization covered so it's kind of hard to gauge how much legalization actually increased it. The problem was that there was no way to compel people into treatment for addiction when the drugs were essentially legal. There was an attempt to replicate what Portugal had done in the early aughts, but as I understand it they could compel people into treatment. The other problem was lack of treatment resources - even if people wanted treatment it could be difficult to come by. While I tended to favor decriminalization before, after seeing the results close up it seems that there should have been a longer period of preparation prior to the enacting legalization. And for substances like fetanyl and meth - highly addictive substances that cause people to resort to crime to keep up the habit - it's probably not be a good idea to ever legalize them because overdosing, death and permanent mental damage are common. We need a more nuanced approach where less addictive (and non-addictive) drugs like pot, LSD, shrooms, etc. are essentially legal while highly addictive drugs remain illegal with stiff penalties for distribution.
    - lokar 3y ago
      But it’s clear that there is no penalty or enforcement budget that will prevent a black market in hard drugs. You will have heroine and fent users, there is no way to prevent it. So, how do you minimize the impact to everyone?
- Ekaros 3y ago
  Decriminalization is entirely different from full legalization. That is only sensible and moral solution.
  - runjake 3y ago
    Do you have anything more to say on this point? Given my experiences in Oregon, I'm having trouble thinking of it as sensible, but I'm open-minded.
    - SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
      Having seen it myself, the only people that are still talking about legal drugs this year, are people who haven’t been to Oregon.
      - KerrAvon 3y ago
        Do you Oregon folks not think Oregon fucked up the implementation? You can’t simply decriminalize and not have adequate resources to handle the results.
        SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
        Have you argued that no one has tired real socialism yet too?
        yareal 3y ago
        This is the thing. Oregon basically decriminalized but didn't build or maintain the harm reduction infrastructure necessary to make decriminalizing drugs not a terrible idea. The two things support one another -- make it easier to stop using, and stop penalizing people so harshly they are scared to use services. I don't know how many addicts y'all have been around, but in my experience no one wants to be an addict.
        runjake 3y ago
        There are resources in place, but at least in my area, they aren't being utilized to capacity. So while it seems logical to the rest of us that addicts don't want to be addicts, they're also apparently not willing to tap into that help. You can argue this or that about something not being funded right, or set up right, but at the end of the day, these people have to make efforts. And a lot of them try! I talk to them! A lot just don't give a crap and have given up on life. Then begs the question: who's going to pay for it, and from where? Our education is already underfunded, and personally I'd rather see funds go to education, particularly non-special education (already well-funded) and Career Technical Education.
- treflop 3y ago
  I don't think criminalizing or decriminalizing drugs really matters so much as stuff like fetty becoming commonplace in the past few decades, fetty precursors being produced by China and ending up in the US, or specific pharma companies heavily promoting anti-pain meds to encourage people to become dependent. I think discussions on criminalizing or decriminalizing or The War on Drugs is a waste of time if the goal is to reduce drug usage because they only affect the symptoms of the drug problem. We should still discuss them, but for other reasons.
- Dibby053 3y ago
  Did it shot up (relative to neighboring states, I assume, otherwise it's not very relevant) because more Oregonians started doing drugs or because drug addicts from nearby states moved in?
nradov 3y ago
While the war on drugs has largely been a failure, it's too late for US drug policy changes to bring down the Mexican cartels. Even if the US government completely legalized all drugs (not something I necessarily support) the cartels would remain. Mexico is a failed state where the central government no longer even tries to exercise control over large parts of their nominal territory.

runjake 3y ago

The War on Drugs is a failed strategy, but I don't know of another way to tackle the problem of drugs and geography, WRT the US. Decriminalizing hard drugs has been a failed experiment in Oregon, where hard drug use shot up drastically.

GenerWork 3y ago
>Decriminalizing hard drugs has been a failed experiment in Oregon, where hard drug use shot up drastically. Is the problem the increased usage, or is it the secondary effects (more homelessness, etc)?
- runjake 3y ago
  I think both, but increased usage + new addictions were specifically cited by the legislation[1] and government officials. The uptick in prevalence of homeless people in the suburban and urban areas is startling though. 1. https://olis.oregonlegislature.gov/liz/2024R1/Measures/Overview/HB4002 https://olis.oregonlegislature.gov/liz/2024R1/Measures/Overv...
- UncleOxidant 3y ago
  Oregonian here. Both, I think. However homelessness increased everywhere over the same period the legalization covered so it's kind of hard to gauge how much legalization actually increased it. The problem was that there was no way to compel people into treatment for addiction when the drugs were essentially legal. There was an attempt to replicate what Portugal had done in the early aughts, but as I understand it they could compel people into treatment. The other problem was lack of treatment resources - even if people wanted treatment it could be difficult to come by. While I tended to favor decriminalization before, after seeing the results close up it seems that there should have been a longer period of preparation prior to the enacting legalization. And for substances like fetanyl and meth - highly addictive substances that cause people to resort to crime to keep up the habit - it's probably not be a good idea to ever legalize them because overdosing, death and permanent mental damage are common. We need a more nuanced approach where less addictive (and non-addictive) drugs like pot, LSD, shrooms, etc. are essentially legal while highly addictive drugs remain illegal with stiff penalties for distribution.
  - lokar 3y ago
    But it’s clear that there is no penalty or enforcement budget that will prevent a black market in hard drugs. You will have heroine and fent users, there is no way to prevent it. So, how do you minimize the impact to everyone?
Ekaros 3y ago
Decriminalization is entirely different from full legalization. That is only sensible and moral solution.
- runjake 3y ago
  Do you have anything more to say on this point? Given my experiences in Oregon, I'm having trouble thinking of it as sensible, but I'm open-minded.
  - SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
    Having seen it myself, the only people that are still talking about legal drugs this year, are people who haven’t been to Oregon.
    - KerrAvon 3y ago
      Do you Oregon folks not think Oregon fucked up the implementation? You can’t simply decriminalize and not have adequate resources to handle the results.
      - SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
        Have you argued that no one has tired real socialism yet too?
      - yareal 3y ago
        This is the thing. Oregon basically decriminalized but didn't build or maintain the harm reduction infrastructure necessary to make decriminalizing drugs not a terrible idea. The two things support one another -- make it easier to stop using, and stop penalizing people so harshly they are scared to use services. I don't know how many addicts y'all have been around, but in my experience no one wants to be an addict.
        runjake 3y ago
        There are resources in place, but at least in my area, they aren't being utilized to capacity. So while it seems logical to the rest of us that addicts don't want to be addicts, they're also apparently not willing to tap into that help. You can argue this or that about something not being funded right, or set up right, but at the end of the day, these people have to make efforts. And a lot of them try! I talk to them! A lot just don't give a crap and have given up on life. Then begs the question: who's going to pay for it, and from where? Our education is already underfunded, and personally I'd rather see funds go to education, particularly non-special education (already well-funded) and Career Technical Education.
treflop 3y ago
I don't think criminalizing or decriminalizing drugs really matters so much as stuff like fetty becoming commonplace in the past few decades, fetty precursors being produced by China and ending up in the US, or specific pharma companies heavily promoting anti-pain meds to encourage people to become dependent. I think discussions on criminalizing or decriminalizing or The War on Drugs is a waste of time if the goal is to reduce drug usage because they only affect the symptoms of the drug problem. We should still discuss them, but for other reasons.
Dibby053 3y ago
Did it shot up (relative to neighboring states, I assume, otherwise it's not very relevant) because more Oregonians started doing drugs or because drug addicts from nearby states moved in?

nradov 3y ago

While the war on drugs has largely been a failure, it's too late for US drug policy changes to bring down the Mexican cartels. Even if the US government completely legalized all drugs (not something I necessarily support) the cartels would remain. Mexico is a failed state where the central government no longer even tries to exercise control over large parts of their nominal territory.